Inequality

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Jennifer
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 12 Dec 2017, 12:20

lunchstealer wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 12:14
No. He’s saying that they shouldn’t say ‘you don’t see this anywhere else in the developed world’ if you do in fact see it elsewhere in the developed world.
"The developed world" was the reporter's take. The actual UN guy said "the First World."
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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 12 Dec 2017, 12:24

Also untrue.

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Re: Inequality

Post by Sandy » 12 Dec 2017, 12:37

JasonL wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 12:24
Also untrue.
Extra untrue, depending on one's definition of First World.
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Shem
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Re: Inequality

Post by Shem » 12 Dec 2017, 13:56

Considering Alabama's infant mortality rate is hovering right around the same level as Sri Lanka despite having something like 9 times the GDP/capita, I'm not sure this is a hill worth dying on.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Dangerman » 12 Dec 2017, 15:02

I don't understand the expectation that we can maintain middle class suburban living standards across a massive geographic area, especially when people insist on living in desolate and inconvenient areas. I am appalled that clean water and sanitation are at such low levels, but that could be a sign that there are limits to how much we can fund a high living standard when the cost of delivering is far more than a population can support by themselves.

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Jasper
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jasper » 12 Dec 2017, 15:21

We should declare war on poverty. That'll fix it right up.
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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 12 Dec 2017, 15:32

Comparing everyone’s shittiest zip codes to
Sri Lanka strikes me as fair. That’s not usually how these things go tho. There’s this thing where we are asked to imagine all of Spain being Barcelona

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Mo
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Re: Inequality

Post by Mo » 12 Dec 2017, 16:31

If Shem is correct that it's all of Alabama, that's more than a few zip codes. Spain's states are a lot smaller, but comparing Guadalajara to Sri Lanka would also be the fair comparison.
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JasonL
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Inequality

Post by JasonL » 12 Dec 2017, 17:24

Overall I do not dispute that Alabama is shitty. Obviously so. The harder thing is to digest the intra country variances in standard of living - which are quite large in developed countries. Rural shitholes are shockingly not what you might expect in many countries. I’m more familiar with Appalachia than Alabama, but the way people live there would shock many coastal folk. That poverty exists, it is hard to solve for and I get a bit annoyed when some UN study acts like everyone else has solved these problems because they have more government agencies.

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Jennifer
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 12 Dec 2017, 18:12

JasonL wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 17:24
Overall I do not dispute that Alabama is shitty. Obviously so. The harder thing is to digest the intra country variances in standard of living - which are quite large in developed countries. Rural shitholes are shockingly not what you might expect in many countries. I’m more familiar with Appalachia than Alabama, but the way people live there would shock many coastal folk. That poverty exists, it is hard to solve for and I get a bit annoyed when some UN study acts like everyone else has solved these problems because they have more government agencies.
I certainly didn't get the impression that the UN was pretending "everyone else" had solved these problems; they did, however, point out some really appalling problems in our backyard.

What is the "proper" Jasonian way to mention hookworm outbreaks and open sewage pits in year-2017 America--include disclaimers a la "Hey, at least they can afford PVC pipes to carry their shit to the open sewage pits; in poorer countries, they wouldn't even have that much"?
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Re: Inequality

Post by lunchstealer » 12 Dec 2017, 18:47

Such situations being 'rare' in the developed world rather than 'unique'. If it happens in non-Soviet Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia/New Zealand, or at this point in South Korea, it's not unique to America.

Hookworm, tho.

However, that could be associated with some hippy-dippy new-ager using hookworms to 'treat' allergies - that's a thing - which then get loose in some place with shitty sanitation/hygiene situations. In such a case it'd be kind of like recent measles outbreaks. But could just be horribly shitty living conditions.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Highway » 12 Dec 2017, 18:57

I don't doubt that there are communities like that even in the US. I also don't disagree with the idea that it totally sucks and it would be good if that didn't happen. But there also just isn't much opportunity available for dealing with individuals that poor. The usual mechanisms for correcting those things tend to not apply: They aren't applying for building permits or moving into houses that codes require septic and proven wells. Do you kick them out of their house? Forcibly move them to a town? Gift them a septic system (then there's a maintenance question)? Require at least an outhouse? There are troubles with all those remedies, and unless you just say "this is money we're going to spend" then you're kinda stuck.
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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 12 Dec 2017, 19:14

I’d be fine with “the persistence of regional poverty in developed countries may surprise some Here is what it looks like in several places - Alabama, rural Spain and Italy, France, the UK etc. Here are factors in each place including government efforts.”

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Re: Inequality

Post by Warren » 12 Dec 2017, 19:15

And I'm saying you have to look far and wide to find people in the lower 48 living in their own shit. It's not hard to find seriously impoverished, especially amongst the rural poor. I've just never seen rural poor people living next to an open sewer. Indeed, living in filth is something I associate more with urban poverty of a bygone time.
This recent PBS Frontline is more what I think poverty in the US looks like.
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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 12 Dec 2017, 19:18

I found that claim questionable myself, but I don’t know what they saw. It is not a pervasive feature of the rural south or even Appalachia

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Re: Inequality

Post by Dangerman » 13 Dec 2017, 12:43

It's not easy, and not trivial, to keep civilization from returning to howling darkness. Success is not an accident, and it's fragile. I don't think that it's helpful to say, "Well, you did a good job *here*, so it must be negligence that you haven't done a good job everywhere!".

Consider this : Why do a certain strain of people fill their yards with junk and garbage?

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Jennifer
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 13 Dec 2017, 13:33

lunchstealer wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 18:47
Such situations being 'rare' in the developed world rather than 'unique'. If it happens in non-Soviet Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia/New Zealand, or at this point in South Korea, it's not unique to America.

Hookworm, tho.

However, that could be associated with some hippy-dippy new-ager using hookworms to 'treat' allergies - that's a thing - which then get loose in some place with shitty sanitation/hygiene situations. In such a case it'd be kind of like recent measles outbreaks. But could just be horribly shitty living conditions.
Not to resort to stereotypes, but: I highly doubt majority-black super-poor regions of rural Alabama have many residents of the hippy-dippy New Age variety.
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Jennifer
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 13 Dec 2017, 13:46

The Newsweek article I linked to and quoted from links to a more detailed article in the Guardian; nearly one out of three people in Lowndes County, Alabama, have hookworm. JFC.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... rapporteur
The UN poverty tour falls at a singularly tense moment for the US. In its 2016 state of the nation review, the Stanford Center on Poverty and Inequality placed the US rank at the bottom of the league table of 10 well-off countries, in terms of the extent of its income and wealth inequality.

It also found that the US hit rock bottom in terms of the safety net it offers struggling families, and is one of the worst offenders in terms of the ability of low-income families to lift themselves out of poverty – a stark contrast to the much-vaunted myth of the American dream.
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Re: Inequality

Post by dead_elvis » 13 Dec 2017, 14:03

Warren wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 19:15
And I'm saying you have to look far and wide to find people in the lower 48 living in their own shit. It's not hard to find seriously impoverished, especially amongst the rural poor. I've just never seen rural poor people living next to an open sewer. Indeed, living in filth is something I associate more with urban poverty of a bygone time.
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Dangerman
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Re: Inequality

Post by Dangerman » 13 Dec 2017, 14:48

People still die from influenza. What is this, the 1920's?

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Re: Inequality

Post by dbcooper » 15 Dec 2017, 16:59

Why Has Regional Income Convergence in the U.S. Declined?
The past thirty years have seen a dramatic decline in the rate of income convergence across states and in population flows to wealthy places. These changes coincide with (1) an increase in housing prices in productive areas, (2) a divergence in the skill-specific returns to living in those places, and (3) a redirection of unskilled migration away from productive places. We develop a model in which rising housing prices in wealthy areas deter unskilled migration and slow income convergence. Using a new panel measure of housing supply regulations, we demonstrate the importance of this channel in the data. Income convergence continues in less-regulated places, while it has mostly stopped in places with more regulation.
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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 15 Dec 2017, 17:02

It’s all houses. It’s people and their fucking houses.

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dbcooper
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Re: Inequality

Post by dbcooper » 15 Dec 2017, 17:22

JasonL wrote:
15 Dec 2017, 17:02
It’s all houses. It’s people and their fucking houses.
Yup. We're seeing the same thing play out in NZ. An entire economy massively distorted by pandering to home owners, and short-sighted approaches to urban growth.
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dbcooper
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Re: Inequality

Post by dbcooper » 15 Dec 2017, 17:30

dbcooper wrote:
15 Dec 2017, 17:22
JasonL wrote:
15 Dec 2017, 17:02
It’s all houses. It’s people and their fucking houses.
Yup. We're seeing the same thing play out in NZ. An entire economy massively distorted by pandering to home owners, and short-sighted approaches to urban growth.
And BTW, our central bank issues a warning about this every six months, and I think I'm the only person in the country who reads it.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Kwix » 15 Dec 2017, 20:13

Jennifer wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 16:39
Warren wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 16:37
Jennifer wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 16:26
Eh, people in a first-world country in 2017 having open sewage pits in their neighborhoods (close to the drinking water supply, no less), sounds like poverty no matter what the median income is. And hookworm outbreaks? Jesus.
That's no where near commonplace though. I traveled all over the state of AL back in Y2K and never saw anything like that.
Presumably you didn't travel through the same parts of the state the UN did.

For that matter, I don't recall the UN saying this was "commonplace," merely that it exists, and for more than one lone and spectacularly unlucky individual.
I know I'm late to the party but poverty at a state level != shittiest parts.
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