Inequality

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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 06 Dec 2018, 15:55

More seriously, I saw this the other day, and it makes me laugh. I got my degree in 1995, which probably is one reason I sneer a bit about new graduate salaries being SOO low. I made about $40,000 in Japan from 1996-1998, returned home, blah blah, got a job at current employer 1999 at starting wage $26,000.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/642 ... graduates/

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thoreau
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Re: Inequality

Post by thoreau » 06 Dec 2018, 16:31

Dude, when it comes to graduate degrees my only complaint is about the shills. You wanna bash the kids? Bash the kids. You wanna hear answers to "Why?" questions. I gotta talk about the shills. That's how it rolls.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Inequality

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 Dec 2018, 17:08

Mo wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 06:35
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:53
Also, weird tangent: I've a few times run into European lefties online who went on about how minimum wage laws don't exist in Europe because unions negotiate minimum wages privately. Naturally, this is completely false, with most European countries having statutory minimum wages, but I wonder how such a myth came about.
What's crazy is that in the UK a higher proportion (>6%) make the minimum wage than Americans at the federal minimum wage (>2%). Though that latter number is misleading because I would suspect the majority of the population are in states with a higher minimum wage. There was no easy way to find what percent of people made the minimum wage in their state.
Mind you, the UK minimum wage is the equivalent of $10.04, so that could have an effect. Don't know how to compare the cost of living.
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Jennifer
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 06 Dec 2018, 17:26

JasonL wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 15:45
Jason: I fundamentally disagree with that entire Jennifer post
Jennifer: What is wrong with retatement of premise
Jason: it all wrong because choice of degree, choice of field and continued costs, and lack of observation of current market conditions are all on you - you have no right to a good paying job in the field you prefer you go where there is demand
Jennifer: restatement with more indignace
Thoreau: not allowed sympathy for students / must boot lick powerful snark
Jason: indignant counter employing direct language / just saying you have agency
Thoreau/Jennifer: why all choices not other people creating situation overselling education etc. y u like powerful people so much
Jason: only u responsible for you
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Or standard Jasonian "all or nothing-ism": the only two possibilities are "every poor person is poor due to their own flaws, those idiots" OR "every poor person is a helpless victim, the entire system we have now should be scrapped and let's go FULL BERNIEBRO." Nuance is not possible, and definitely not "these things are good, but those things need fixing." Any attempt at seeing nuance must be dismissed with maximum snideness, perhaps even accompanied by the suggestion that avoiding "all or nothing-ism" is an inherent intellectual or character flaw.

Though perhaps I'm misreading it -- when Jason said he disagreed with my entire post, does that include my suggestion that my Facebook acquaintance is an idiot whose tendency for making bad decisions would likely leave her poor no matter how well the greater economy is doing? Should I view her as a helpless victim instead?
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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 06 Dec 2018, 17:53

Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 17:08
Mo wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 06:35
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:53
Also, weird tangent: I've a few times run into European lefties online who went on about how minimum wage laws don't exist in Europe because unions negotiate minimum wages privately. Naturally, this is completely false, with most European countries having statutory minimum wages, but I wonder how such a myth came about.
What's crazy is that in the UK a higher proportion (>6%) make the minimum wage than Americans at the federal minimum wage (>2%). Though that latter number is misleading because I would suspect the majority of the population are in states with a higher minimum wage. There was no easy way to find what percent of people made the minimum wage in their state.
Mind you, the UK minimum wage is the equivalent of $10.04, so that could have an effect. Don't know how to compare the cost of living.
Use Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) conversions instead of straight currency conversions, is the typical way. UK is like $9.79 PPP adjusted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... by_country

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Inequality

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 Dec 2018, 18:10

Jennifer wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 15:09
Tl;dr: while some examples of "I have a degree or two yet still can't find a job to support myself" are due entirely to poor decision-making, plenty more are not, and there's enough of them that I do indeed think there's an overall systemic problem: it's not purely a case of too many individuals making too many bad decisions for themselves.
Nothing's purely anything. For every ridiculous case of largess, there's some person who needs it through no fault of their own. For every reasonable consideration, there's some undeserving, useless asshat being saved by it.

The only question is what's the percentage of asshats, here? Every time the issue of unemployed people with masters' comes up, my perception of that percentage gets higher.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Aresen » 06 Dec 2018, 18:59

Bluntly, I think much of the whining from the college educated under-employed ('ceue's? pronounced cooeeyyy) is due to an assumption that their current circumstances will last, like, f - o - r - e - v - e - r - r - r - r. In reality, most of them will muddle through and, like prior generations, discover that they did fairly well.

And they'll despise Generation Σ for whining about how hard it is in the 2050s.
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Re: Inequality

Post by lunchstealer » 06 Dec 2018, 19:21

Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 17:08
Mo wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 06:35
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Dec 2018, 18:53
Also, weird tangent: I've a few times run into European lefties online who went on about how minimum wage laws don't exist in Europe because unions negotiate minimum wages privately. Naturally, this is completely false, with most European countries having statutory minimum wages, but I wonder how such a myth came about.
What's crazy is that in the UK a higher proportion (>6%) make the minimum wage than Americans at the federal minimum wage (>2%). Though that latter number is misleading because I would suspect the majority of the population are in states with a higher minimum wage. There was no easy way to find what percent of people made the minimum wage in their state.
Mind you, the UK minimum wage is the equivalent of $10.04, so that could have an effect. Don't know how to compare the cost of living.
Somewhere I did find a site that had minimum wages for various countries in PPP dollars. US went from dead last to middle of the pack pretty quickly.
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Jennifer
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 06 Dec 2018, 20:35

Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 18:10
Jennifer wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 15:09
Tl;dr: while some examples of "I have a degree or two yet still can't find a job to support myself" are due entirely to poor decision-making, plenty more are not, and there's enough of them that I do indeed think there's an overall systemic problem: it's not purely a case of too many individuals making too many bad decisions for themselves.
Nothing's purely anything. For every ridiculous case of largess, there's some person who needs it through no fault of their own. For every reasonable consideration, there's some undeserving, useless asshat being saved by it.

The only question is what's the percentage of asshats, here? Every time the issue of unemployed people with masters' comes up, my perception of that percentage gets higher.
Unemployed or "under" employed. And (especially for those with masters' degrees) likely burdened with an enormous, bankruptcy-proof student debt as well.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Inequality

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 Dec 2018, 21:01

Jennifer wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 20:35
Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 18:10
Jennifer wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 15:09
Tl;dr: while some examples of "I have a degree or two yet still can't find a job to support myself" are due entirely to poor decision-making, plenty more are not, and there's enough of them that I do indeed think there's an overall systemic problem: it's not purely a case of too many individuals making too many bad decisions for themselves.
Nothing's purely anything. For every ridiculous case of largess, there's some person who needs it through no fault of their own. For every reasonable consideration, there's some undeserving, useless asshat being saved by it.

The only question is what's the percentage of asshats, here? Every time the issue of unemployed people with masters' comes up, my perception of that percentage gets higher.
Unemployed or "under" employed. And (especially for those with masters' degrees) likely burdened with an enormous, bankruptcy-proof student debt as well.
Fine, both sets.
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Jennifer
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 07 Dec 2018, 13:50

Related: Millennials are indeed poorer than Boomers and Gen Xers were at the same age.

https://slate.com/business/2018/12/mill ... e_taps_top
Millennials don’t spend money all that differently from past generations. They just have less of it.

Such is the finding of a recent study by economists at the Federal Reserve Board, which has been greeted as a rejoinder to the roughly 3,001 trend pieces published this decade about how young adult consumer habits are either changing the economy, or leading today’s twenty and thirtysomethings into a financial black hole. You know the stories. Millennials don’t like buying cars. We don’t save for retirement because we spend too much money eating out. We killed canned tuna and American cheese. The common theme running through many of these pieces is that illennials’ spending decisions aren’t driven merely by financial circumstances, but also changing tastes. We treasure avocados and walkable cities and prefer spending on data plans than car payments.

Not so, the Fed paper seemingly suggests. The researchers show that while millennials households are less wealthy and, by some measures, have lower incomes than previous cohorts, when it comes to spending and saving they aren’t all that unique...

--snip --

What the researchers do find is that millennials—who they define as Americans born between 1981 and 1997—are relatively broke. The average net worth—assets, minus debts—of a young adult household in 2016 was 20 percent less than baby boomer households in 1989 and 40 percent less than Gen X households in 2001. The deficit is driven in large part the by the fact that millennials are much less likely to own homes and much more likely to have student debt. (It’s also in keeping with another Federal Reserve study from this year showing that millennials are trailing far behind previous generations on wealth accumulation, even though they have comparable savings habits.) Income is a somewhat more complicated picture, but after controlling for age, education, demographics, and other factors, the paper finds millennials who work full-time earn less than boomers and Gen X did. It’s really not a stretch to call this generation overeducated and underpaid...
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Shem
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Re: Inequality

Post by Shem » 07 Dec 2018, 14:25

Never mind that, every other generation turned out OK, so all those indicators that don't match the past are totally wrong.
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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 07 Dec 2018, 14:58

There are a lot of things being squished together in that kind of analysis. I think the real story, most of it, is the uniquely bad situation those without degrees but with student debt are facing and further the stagnation of wages for HS diploma only types. The people who have 4 year degrees started later but have seen significant wage growth - current graduates are averaging $50k.

So degree holders are getting income. The asset problem is related to the price of housing, and I can’t emphasize this enough- in the most expensive zip codes. Avg Rent in Cincinnati is like $1100 for something kinda nice. That’s under 30% of the $50k graduate median income. Try that same trick in the coolest places - yeah it doesn’t work.

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Re: Inequality

Post by Aresen » 07 Dec 2018, 15:06

Shem wrote:
07 Dec 2018, 14:25
Never mind that, every other generation turned out OK, so all those indicators that don't match the past are totally wrong.
Since the industrial revolution, each successive generation has had problems previous generations did not. And, of course, they were doomed because 'things are different now.'
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Shem
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Re: Inequality

Post by Shem » 07 Dec 2018, 15:28

JasonL wrote:
07 Dec 2018, 14:58
The people who have 4 year degrees started later but have seen significant wage growth - current graduates are averaging $50k.
In the meantime, your 6.5% student loans have grown half again what they were when you got out, because you haven't had the money to even cover the interest. Meaning now you have to pay more, so you delay houses, kids, etc. Which is exactly what the article says it's happening. If I didn't have my loans, I'd probably be married with at least one kid at this point. I get that you find it an inconsequential problem, but having the effects of it be chalked up to a love of avocado toast by the larger society is beginning to rankle.
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 07 Dec 2018, 16:26

I’m not an avotoast determinist. I’m mostly a guy who thinks the bulk of the structural issue is related to non degree holders, with an effect on degree holders where certain graduation dates were set back due to the effects of 2007. 2010 and later graduates aren’t doing that bad as a cohort. It is not a lost generation.

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Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 08 Dec 2018, 19:29

JasonL wrote:
07 Dec 2018, 16:26
I’m not an avotoast determinist. I’m mostly a guy who thinks the bulk of the structural issue is related to non degree holders
Which seems to suggest that the solution is for non-degree-holders to change that status and get a degree? Presumably while ignoring or dismissing any suggestion that "high educational costs" (or "high educational debt," however you prefer to word it) is a systemic problem, rather than "the system itself is fine and needs no changes at all, because only people with this problem are those prone to consistently making unusually bad decisions"?
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 08 Dec 2018, 19:43

Don’t know that I have a solution, but it certainly isn’t putting non academically inclined people into 4 year programs. It would look more like trying to get those people trained into skills with market demand. Lots of medical stuff. Relocation is also a part of that story.

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Re: Inequality

Post by thoreau » 08 Dec 2018, 19:52

JasonL wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 19:43
Don’t know that I have a solution, but it certainly isn’t putting non academically inclined people into 4 year programs. It would look more like trying to get those people trained into skills with market demand.
Amen to that. Community colleges are a big part of the answer.

One under-reported story is that it's way cheaper for a community college to "prepare" people for transfer to 4-year schools than it is to train them to do medical billing or auto repair or dental assisting or whatever. Vocational classes are smaller, usually need equipment, and usually need instructors with marketable skills. Whereas History 101 or whatever for 4-year transfer aspirants needs an adjunct with an over-produced MA or PhD, a room with seats, a chalkboard, and books.

This might explain some of the 4-year transfer mania. The people in charge figure it's cheaper to over-produce BAs than to actually train people in marketable stuff.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Warren » 08 Dec 2018, 20:03

Tech schools and apprenticeship programs furkrystesake.
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Jennifer
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Re: Inequality

Post by Jennifer » 08 Dec 2018, 21:11

JasonL wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 19:43
Don’t know that I have a solution, but it certainly isn’t putting non academically inclined people into 4 year programs. It would look more like trying to get those people trained into skills with market demand. Lots of medical stuff. Relocation is also a part of that story.
And the high costs/debt held by higher percentages of people who do have those degrees is of no concern despite the Feds' noting Millennials tend to have a lot more debt than previous generations did?
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Re: Inequality

Post by Pham Nuwen » 09 Dec 2018, 01:42

I moved into med stuff. It's working pretty good so far. I'm wavering towards team jasonL
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JasonL
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Re: Inequality

Post by JasonL » 09 Dec 2018, 09:34

Jennifer wrote:
JasonL wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 19:43
Don’t know that I have a solution, but it certainly isn’t putting non academically inclined people into 4 year programs. It would look more like trying to get those people trained into skills with market demand. Lots of medical stuff. Relocation is also a part of that story.
And the high costs/debt held by higher percentages of people who do have those degrees is of no concern despite the Feds' noting Millennials tend to have a lot more debt than previous generations did?
On the list of problems I worry about it’s pretty far down - certainly below the threshold where I’d want public policy to try to fix it. I am much more concerned about the structural issues of the HS only set. I may be persuaded to try subsidized relocation assistance or something.

Overall I am still mostly of the mindset that we are plagued in some sense by expectations and self identities mismatching economic realities. I think 40something blue collar men suffer from this more than millennials and are in some ways hurting more if we are comparing notes. That is

“I’m a writer,” “I’m a photographer”, “I’m a union factory guy”, and “I have a degree I should be making $75k,” are things that involve disappointing interactions with market forces these days. I think the relative wealth of our society and cultural “you can do whatever you dream of!” stories make those identities more rigid than would be optimal. The costs of pursuing those things with low returns is a tough situation.


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Warren
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Re: Inequality

Post by Warren » 09 Dec 2018, 09:57

I've read many accounts of the Great Depression. Mostly from people not writing about the Depression itself, but simply describing their life at that time. One thing that I've kinda fixated on, is the ways people got through it financially by finding ways to scrape up pennies. Taking in borders, butter and egg money, sewing, laundry, stuff we might call "side hustles" today. And today we have technology, 3d-printing, amazon for supplies, ebay and etsy for sales, etc. that should make a gig economy more efficient. But we also have a tax and regulatory regime that suffocates small business. Of course many people "fly under the radar" by being too small to go after for noncompliance. In a functioning economy a person can make a choice to "quit their day job" and take their small business legit. But when every penny is the difference between eating or going hungry, that's a recipe for a black market economy. And technology has made that more efficient too. But in that situation, everyone becomes a criminal of one sort or another and that's no way to run a society.
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Re: Inequality

Post by Mo » 09 Dec 2018, 15:45

I would note that a lot of the reason people move to the “coolest places” is that is where the jobs are. Witness Amazon and Google’s recent moves. Those are prestige companies that can get people to move to them and they still chose NY and DC.
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