Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

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Taktix®
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Taktix® » 04 Jan 2016, 15:41

JasonL wrote:I get the idea that justice was not served by using anti terrorism laws in an arson case. I don't get what seems to be the larger point that my cow gets to graze on land I don't own because something something freedom.
I've hear the notion on talk radio before that the government is trying to take over most of the land in the West via the national park system. While I can't rule that possibility out, it's not what's going on in Oregon and not something I'd take up arms against the federal government over...
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Sandy » 04 Jan 2016, 15:42

JasonL wrote:I get the idea that justice was not served by using anti terrorism laws in an arson case. I don't get what seems to be the larger point that my cow gets to graze on land I don't own because something something freedom.
Supposedly they are now paying for that privilege, but something somethign land grab freedom sovereign citizen.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by lunchstealer » 04 Jan 2016, 17:11

tr0g wrote:
nicole wrote:So uh is there any way people could actually, you know, take action against the government without people on a freaking libertarian board wringing their hands about how they're big meanies? Smashing the state ain't nice.
I'm in. The US federal government is the biggest threat to your life and property going. You want to take up arms and go for broke? Rock on, brother. They'll get crushed when push comes to shove, but have at. I don't get the idea that the only way to resist the state is non-violently. The state will bury you if you get out of line, but we're not supposed to exercise violence against it or its agents? Fuck that noise.
To be clear, I'm not opposed in theory or principle nor even in action in certain circumstances. Hell, do you really think we'd have heard about Ferguson if that QT hadn't burned down? But I'm all for proportional response and not blowing your wad by going nuclear/armed-resistance over penny-ante bullshit because you'll do more harm than good.

As always, my go-to comparison is to Abu Ghraib. The worst of the Abu Ghraib offenders served just over five and a half years. The feds are insisting on a similar term for some guys who were stupid and negligent and behaved dangerously (although how actually dangerous isn't entirely clear) but caused no damage to structures nor human life. For guys who've already spent a year in prison, which isn't exactly getting off easy.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 04 Jan 2016, 17:23

lunchstealer wrote:
tr0g wrote:
nicole wrote:So uh is there any way people could actually, you know, take action against the government without people on a freaking libertarian board wringing their hands about how they're big meanies? Smashing the state ain't nice.
I'm in. The US federal government is the biggest threat to your life and property going. You want to take up arms and go for broke? Rock on, brother. They'll get crushed when push comes to shove, but have at. I don't get the idea that the only way to resist the state is non-violently. The state will bury you if you get out of line, but we're not supposed to exercise violence against it or its agents? Fuck that noise.
To be clear, I'm not opposed in theory or principle nor even in action in certain circumstances. Hell, do you really think we'd have heard about Ferguson if that QT hadn't burned down? But I'm all for proportional response and not blowing your wad by going nuclear/armed-resistance over penny-ante bullshit because you'll do more harm than good.

As always, my go-to comparison is to Abu Ghraib. The worst of the Abu Ghraib offenders served just over five and a half years. The feds are insisting on a similar term for some guys who were stupid and negligent and behaved dangerously (although how actually dangerous isn't entirely clear) but caused no damage to structures nor human life. For guys who've already spent a year in prison, which isn't exactly getting off easy.
The problem with that is I'd say the Abu Ghraboids should have gotten longer sentences.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by thoreau » 04 Jan 2016, 17:25

I don't know what sorts of sentences the enlisted folks at Abu Ghraib should have gotten, but somebody above them should have faced some steeper consequences.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by lunchstealer » 04 Jan 2016, 17:30

thoreau wrote:I don't know what sorts of sentences the enlisted folks at Abu Ghraib should have gotten, but somebody above them should have faced some steeper consequences.
I'm comfortable saying that they should've been longer, and agree that the higher-ups should've also done some hard time.

That said, I just can't really get behind a mandatory minimum 5 years for starting a fire in the boondocks that didn't cause actual damage - even if it can be argued that they still deserved longer than they got. I feel like a mandatory minimum and a terrorism-related charge are standalone injustices and don't require any but-but-but-they're-reckless-idiots.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by thoreau » 04 Jan 2016, 17:36

lunchstealer wrote:
thoreau wrote:I don't know what sorts of sentences the enlisted folks at Abu Ghraib should have gotten, but somebody above them should have faced some steeper consequences.
I'm comfortable saying that they should've been longer, and agree that the higher-ups should've also done some hard time.

That said, I just can't really get behind a mandatory minimum 5 years for starting a fire in the boondocks that didn't cause actual damage - even if it can be argued that they still deserved longer than they got. I feel like a mandatory minimum and a terrorism-related charge are standalone injustices and don't require any but-but-but-they're-reckless-idiots.
Since the Hammonds apparently want nothing to do with the Bundy's, I feel no need to "but-but-but" them. I don't have a problem, in principle, with some sort of prison time for starting a fire in dry country, but five years does seem a lot and I agree that terrorism is a dangerous label to throw around.

The Bundy folks are fucking idiots who are waving guns at people, and I will "but-but-but" all day long against any defense of them.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by nicole » 04 Jan 2016, 17:39

tr0g wrote:
nicole wrote:So uh is there any way people could actually, you know, take action against the government without people on a freaking libertarian board wringing their hands about how they're big meanies? Smashing the state ain't nice.
I'm in. The US federal government is the biggest threat to your life and property going. You want to take up arms and go for broke? Rock on, brother. They'll get crushed when push comes to shove, but have at. I don't get the idea that the only way to resist the state is non-violently. The state will bury you if you get out of line, but we're not supposed to exercise violence against it or its agents? Fuck that noise.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Aresen » 04 Jan 2016, 17:40

I do not know the exact damage to the land - afaict, it was essentially scrub land: Somewhat useable for pasture, but otherwise only suitable for flying over.

The question is: Were the sentences appropriate to the damage caused? I don't think so, especially since there does not seem to have been any intention to cause damage.

TBS: A bunch of yahoos setting up an armed protest camp in a National Forest is not going to do their cause one bit of good.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by lunchstealer » 04 Jan 2016, 17:47

And I'm defending the Bundys only to the degree that pointing out the injustice of some Israeli actions in the Occupied Territories or American meddling in Middle East politics is defending al Qaeda and Hamas. Suggesting that they have a point is not the same as endorsing their methods.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Mo » 04 Jan 2016, 20:24

I think the bigger issue was the second one got out of control and put firefighters trying to put out the main fire at risk after a no burn order was put out. My guess if they were both like the first one, their wouldn't have been as much pressure for the 5 years.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Mo » 04 Jan 2016, 21:07

Interesting chart on BLM grazing prices. The Feds would make a shitload of money selling that land off.

Image
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 04 Jan 2016, 21:52

Mo wrote:Interesting chart on BLM grazing prices. The Feds would make a shitload of money selling that land off.

Image
I doubt there is much of a market for it.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Eric the .5b » 04 Jan 2016, 22:01

Team Not-Internet-Tough-Guys. Dipshits in the middle of the woods aren't "smashing the state". And fuck "smashing the state", anyway - I'm not a far-leftist wistfully dreaming of mass murder. I just want this state to do less smashing.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Aresen » 04 Jan 2016, 23:44

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
Mo wrote:Interesting chart on BLM grazing prices. The Feds would make a shitload of money selling that land off.

Image
I doubt there is much of a market for it.
There is definitely a market, which is why there is so much grazing on BLM lands. But it is a little like California agricultural water rates: The subsidy works back into a reduced price for the end product.

I take their 'market rates' with a grain of salt, however, as the grazing quality of the land varies considerably. Seeing the source of the information, I suspect there is an advocacy weighting to the 'market price' derived.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 04 Jan 2016, 23:47

Aresen wrote:
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
Mo wrote:Interesting chart on BLM grazing prices. The Feds would make a shitload of money selling that land off.

Image
I doubt there is much of a market for it.
There is definitely a market, which is why there is so much grazing on BLM lands. But it is a little like California agricultural water rates: The subsidy works back into a reduced price for the end product.

I take their 'market rates' with a grain of salt, however, as the grazing quality of the land varies considerably. Seeing the source of the information, I suspect there is an advocacy weighting to the 'market price' derived.
I doubt there is a market for the land that would pay what it would be worth it to the BLM to sell. If it was sold at its NPV for grazing, it wouldn't be sold at its NPV for mineral rights, or its NPV for logging.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Aresen » 05 Jan 2016, 00:11

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
Aresen wrote: There is definitely a market, which is why there is so much grazing on BLM lands. But it is a little like California agricultural water rates: The subsidy works back into a reduced price for the end product.

I take their 'market rates' with a grain of salt, however, as the grazing quality of the land varies considerably. Seeing the source of the information, I suspect there is an advocacy weighting to the 'market price' derived.
I doubt there is a market for the land that would pay what it would be worth it to the BLM to sell. If it was sold at its NPV for grazing, it wouldn't be sold at its NPV for mineral rights, or its NPV for logging.
You are probably right as far as "highest and best use" goes in the market sense. There would also be a market among the top decile for "private ranches" (= country 'homes' that get used three weeks a year).
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by nicole » 05 Jan 2016, 08:15

Taktix® wrote:
nicole wrote:
thoreau wrote:
nicole wrote:So uh is there any way people could actually, you know, take action against the government without people on a freaking libertarian board wringing their hands about how they're big meanies?
Non-violently, maybe?
Has there been any violence since the beginning of this occupation?
Yes. Brandishing a weapon with the threat of violent retaliation is an act of violence. An armed overthrow of the government is like a stocking full of coal. The option has to be on the table, but shouldn't ever be used...
It strikes me that if you think that's violence, the state is committing continuous violence against all of us and we're all morally justified in fighting back at any time.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by lunchstealer » 05 Jan 2016, 09:20

Only if you don't buy into the idea of the night watchman model of government having at least a nominal monopoly on the use of force.

This is not to deny that there might be times and places where brandishing or even using deadly weapons might be appropriate against government actors, but that ace needs to be kept in the hole way longer than the Mammon Bundy et al are going for.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 05 Jan 2016, 09:27

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... t-sba-loan

Ammon Bundy got a $530K loan from the SBA. Real Americans stand on principles, except when it is convenient not to.

And he kicked a dog!

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Kolohe » 05 Jan 2016, 10:38

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
Aresen wrote:
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
Mo wrote:Interesting chart on BLM grazing prices. The Feds would make a shitload of money selling that land off.

Image
I doubt there is much of a market for it.
There is definitely a market, which is why there is so much grazing on BLM lands. But it is a little like California agricultural water rates: The subsidy works back into a reduced price for the end product.

I take their 'market rates' with a grain of salt, however, as the grazing quality of the land varies considerably. Seeing the source of the information, I suspect there is an advocacy weighting to the 'market price' derived.
I doubt there is a market for the land that would pay what it would be worth it to the BLM to sell. If it was sold at its NPV for grazing, it wouldn't be sold at its NPV for mineral rights, or its NPV for logging.
My uneducated guess is there is also an externality cost and/or opportunity cost priced in there. My guess (my hope really) is that the govt leases the land out at far below capacity, closing off areas from time to time in order to prevent overgrazing and Dust Bowl II - The Wrath of the Grapes.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by nicole » 05 Jan 2016, 12:48

lunchstealer wrote:Only if you don't buy into the idea of the night watchman model of government having at least a nominal monopoly on the use of force.
True enough. I don't, of course.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by fyodor » 05 Jan 2016, 13:43

lunchstealer,do you have a link to something saying the Hammonds were convicted on terrorism charges? I know Reason said the big problem was the minimum sentencing required, but they described it as a more mundane arson on federal property charge, if I'm reading it correctly (see https://reason.com/blog/2016/01/04/ranc ... red-oregon). That would be verrrrrry interesting if it were a terrorism charge, for a few different reasons, but really, I haven't seen that anywhere except from you.
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Mo
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Mo » 05 Jan 2016, 13:47

The increase in the arson charge mandatory minimum was part of a post-OKC terrorism bill.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Aresen » 05 Jan 2016, 13:52

Mo wrote:The increase in the arson charge mandatory minimum was part of a post-OKC terrorism bill.
Is there any government abuse that 'fighting terrorism' can't justify?
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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