Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

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the innominate one
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by the innominate one » 13 Aug 2016, 00:19

Good point.
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thoreau
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by thoreau » 27 Oct 2016, 22:06

The guys who took over the wildlife refuge in Oregon were acquitted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us/bu ... efuge.html

Look, everyone knows how little I know about the law, but I generally assume that if I got together with a bunch of friends and took over a government building at gunpoint I would probably get into some sort of trouble. Or worse. But the world is evidently very different from what I thought.

I'm not crying a river because a few people avoided prison, but this whole thing continues to baffle me.
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dbcooper
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by dbcooper » 27 Oct 2016, 22:29

Apparently nine(!) of the occupiers were FBI informants.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... s_con.html
Minoggio was one of 15 confidential informants who fed the FBI information about the occupiers, testimony showed.

Nine of the 15 were at the refuge for various lengths of time between Jan. 4 and Jan. 26, according to a statement that Assistant U.S. Attorney Craig Gabriel read to jurors. Those nine included the three who have been identified at trial: Minoggio, defense witness Terri Linnell of California and Mark McConnell, who was the driver of the Jeep that Ammon Bundy was riding in when he was arrested on Jan. 26.
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Andrew
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Andrew » 27 Oct 2016, 23:23

If those guys got acquitted in Oregon, the Feds' odds in Nevada just got even worse.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Aresen » 27 Oct 2016, 23:32

dbcooper wrote:Apparently nine(!) of the occupiers were FBI informants.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... s_con.html
Minoggio was one of 15 confidential informants who fed the FBI information about the occupiers, testimony showed.

Nine of the 15 were at the refuge for various lengths of time between Jan. 4 and Jan. 26, according to a statement that Assistant U.S. Attorney Craig Gabriel read to jurors. Those nine included the three who have been identified at trial: Minoggio, defense witness Terri Linnell of California and Mark McConnell, who was the driver of the Jeep that Ammon Bundy was riding in when he was arrested on Jan. 26.
What would we do for terrorists without the FBI?
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Painboy » 27 Oct 2016, 23:54

Aresen wrote:
dbcooper wrote:Apparently nine(!) of the occupiers were FBI informants.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... s_con.html
Minoggio was one of 15 confidential informants who fed the FBI information about the occupiers, testimony showed.

Nine of the 15 were at the refuge for various lengths of time between Jan. 4 and Jan. 26, according to a statement that Assistant U.S. Attorney Craig Gabriel read to jurors. Those nine included the three who have been identified at trial: Minoggio, defense witness Terri Linnell of California and Mark McConnell, who was the driver of the Jeep that Ammon Bundy was riding in when he was arrested on Jan. 26.
What would we do for terrorists without the FBI?
This was exactly what I thought. Are they just passing out bomb formulas and plans on how to thwart the federal government?

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by nicole » 28 Oct 2016, 08:08

Reassuring that juries seem not to like having their ranks infiltrated by former BLM workers and watching defense attorneys get tased in the courtroom.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 28 Oct 2016, 09:59

I hope there's a good post-mortem of the trial written up somewhere.

I am assuming right now they were overcharged.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 28 Oct 2016, 10:49

Marcus Mumford, the Bundy attorney, seems like a total fucking nut. Is he a sovereign citizen or something? Whatever byou say about his success in the courtroom, his outburst, unless attributable to mental illness, maybe, is probably going to get him disbarred in at least OR, NY, and CA.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Andrew » 28 Oct 2016, 13:12

I see that WaPo has a breathless article about how this will embolden extremists/militias and put our honest, hard-working federal employees at risk.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 28 Oct 2016, 13:14

Andrew wrote:I see that WaPo has a breathless article about how this will embolden extremists/militias and put our honest, hard-working federal employees at risk.
You don't think it will?

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by JasonL » 28 Oct 2016, 13:29

No. Not in a meaningful sense. The number of people willing to do something like that is tiny and this might convert that to tiny plus infinitesimal.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 28 Oct 2016, 13:31

JasonL wrote:No. Not in a meaningful sense. The number of people willing to do something like that is tiny and this might convert that to tiny plus infinitesimal.
Two or three you think?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by JasonL » 28 Oct 2016, 13:34

300,000,000 is a lot of people. Some will do strange things. I'm not calling this a real increasing threat anymore than I am freaking out about boston bombers or 9/11.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 28 Oct 2016, 13:37

JasonL wrote:300,000,000 is a lot of people. Some will do strange things. I'm not calling this a real increasing threat anymore than I am freaking out about boston bombers or 9/11.
That seems inapposite. The response there was the state's, which you did seem to freak out about. The response here will be private parties emboldened to either violence or getring to close to the line, resulting in a higher casualty count than at Malheur (one dead).

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Jennifer » 28 Oct 2016, 13:40

I can definitely see this being a recruitment boost to certain branches of the "sovereign citizen" movement, of the "This courtroom has no legal authority because there's gold fringe on the flag"-type. From the perspective of someone who actually believes "If you say the magic words or know the secret codes, you effectively become exempt from the law," it looks like the Bundys managed to do exactly that.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by JasonL » 28 Oct 2016, 13:48

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
JasonL wrote:300,000,000 is a lot of people. Some will do strange things. I'm not calling this a real increasing threat anymore than I am freaking out about boston bombers or 9/11.
That seems inapposite. The response there was the state's, which you did seem to freak out about. The response here will be private parties emboldened to either violence or getring to close to the line, resulting in a higher casualty count than at Malheur (one dead).
We may be talking past each other. I was arguing that I hear "private white folk will be emboldened to violence" in the same way I hear "muslims will be emboldened to violence" in previous contexts. The "success" of the thing is supposed to be emboldening but if you look at the broad risk of entire populations, the risk increase is very very small on a very very small base to start with.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by thoreau » 28 Oct 2016, 14:20

This acquittal won't increase the odds of an Oklahoma City-style bombing. If anything, it will decrease the odds slightly, since it sends the message that you're more likely to get away with it as long as you just take over a building rather than blowing it up.

(There is the matter of the guy who was shot and killed, but he was reportedly the guy who said he'd rather die than be taken alive, so that is one that people can debate either way.)

I doubt that the impending Clin2on Administration wants another Waco, so they will probably take a similarly cautious approach to such standoffs in the future. But if a few more of these happen and get attention then they will face intense pressure from liberals demanding to know why conservative white guys get away with things that people of color could never get away with. I doubt that a federal agent in the field cares much about such complaints when they're there in the moment, but the people they answer to in DC might act stupidly if they feel enough political pressure.

Here's hoping that they find ways to defuse such standoffs without bloodshed but without people getting away with it on a routine basis. I'm not holding my breath for much deftness, sadly, but I still hope for it.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Sandy » 28 Oct 2016, 18:33

McVeigh was motivated by the government killing (justifiably or not) many people in Waco for having guns. There is no martyrdom here since most people got off Scott free-ish.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Shem » 29 Oct 2016, 14:01

Think the prosecutor's big problem was that his reach exceeded his grasp, and he didn't leave himself a backup because he didn't want the jurors copping out and going for the lesser offense. He could easily have gotten them for having guns on federal property, but he didn't go for that. He wanted to put them away for conspiracy, and once he couldn't prove that, everything else just kind of evaporated.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by thoreau » 29 Oct 2016, 14:19

I don't claim to know the specifics of what constitutes conspiracy, but it seems pretty clear that they were working together. It's not like they all showed up independently and were surprised to see their friends were there and armed and were planning to take over the place. The prosecutor must have botched things if he couldn't prove any sort of illegal activity.

If I refuse to leave a federal building after being told by the proper authorities that I have no business there, am I committing some sort of crime?

Sent from a phone so their may be speling errors and autocorrect snafu's.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Shem » 29 Oct 2016, 15:21

Their argument was, IIRC, that they went there with the intention of committing an act of civil disobedience, and the situation subsequently spiraled out of control. I don't buy it, but apparently the jury did. I wonder what they're going to do when the government sends them the bill for the damage they did. Seems like it would have been easier to solicit donations to pay it off if they were doing so from prison.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by thoreau » 10 Jul 2018, 14:04

And now a pardon for the people whose case precipitated this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/us/p ... regon.html

I can believe that the pardon was deserved, but I would be a lot less bothered if their pardon had been announced as part of a larger batch of pardons after a review of many excessive sentences. Doing their case singly strongly suggests that it was done because they are right-wing martyrs. If anything, this sends the message that taking over a building at gunpoint is how you get things done.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Shem » 10 Jul 2018, 16:02

"I would be a lot less bothered by the pardon of these right-wing martyrs if it hadn't been a pardon of right-wing martyrs."
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by thoreau » 10 Jul 2018, 17:17

Kevin Drum's take is a bit too real:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/ ... ve-heroes/
Trump appears to be on the lookout for people he can pardon as a way of firing up his base. Who’s next? I’ll put my money on some white cop who was convicted of shooting a black guy. That’s assuming any exist, of course.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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