Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

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Mo
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Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Mo » 11 Apr 2014, 20:49

Boy, this Bundy situation in Nevada makes no one look good. The Feds seem to be going by their typical "Even when we're right, we're going to handle it the wrong way" book.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Aresen » 11 Apr 2014, 21:00

That was about my take.

The rancher lost his court case, but is insisting on his right to use the land for free. The Feds are resting on their AUTHORITY. The county mounties are playing bigshots. And the usual gang of crazies is coming to do their craziness.

Only the turtles are minding their own business. (They seemed to be doing fine before the feds got involved.)

If it weren't for the turtles, I'd say nuke it from orbit.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Mo » 11 Apr 2014, 21:03

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by GinSlinger » 11 Apr 2014, 22:53

Are the Feds right?

I have no idea how a BLM lease works so I really don't know. But, if I was enjoying rent free use of property for fifty years, and then the owner wanted to charge me a fee, I don't think he'd win the case. This is why those long leases in common law require cursory rent payments (like a peppercorn) payable on demand.

But I don't have a clue what a BLM lease looks like.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Mo » 11 Apr 2014, 23:01

He was paying before 1993, the BLM modified the grazing terms for the turtles and then he stopped paying.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by GinSlinger » 11 Apr 2014, 23:07

Ah. Not what I'd seen, but I haven't paid careful attention. Thanks for setting me straight.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by lunchstealer » 11 Apr 2014, 23:28

As much as I find the BLM's monopoly on Western lands retarded, I've yet to see anything that strongly suggests anything but fuck you Cliven, you're a goddamned rube who doesn't fucking understand the Constitution, also, your granddad got in bed with the Feds to take land from the Utes so fuck you hard with a spiked dick.

The one thing that may turn me back to Cliven's side is the possibility that this whole thing is an excuse to sell high-dollar mining leases for more Federal dollars. But even then, fuck it, Clem, you fucking rube, go back to 1993 and keep paying the goddamned BLM fees to show good faith for the courts because otherwise they're going to bend you over and fuck you with a spiked dick, you goddamned rube.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by lunchstealer » 11 Apr 2014, 23:33

There is the tiniest bit of evidence that the whole thing motivated by mining interests - although the details that don't come from interested Cliven-related parties are sketchy at best. Anyway, if they took his land for ESA purposes and handed it over for stripmining, he'd have a pretty good bad-faith claim of some sort against the BLM, I'd think.

Otherwise, if it's just I'm-a-big-dicked-Nevada-rancher bullshit, fuck you hard with a spiked dick.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Dangerman » 12 Apr 2014, 10:16

lunchstealer wrote:As much as I find the BLM's monopoly on Western lands retarded, I've yet to see anything that strongly suggests anything but fuck you Cliven, you're a goddamned rube who doesn't fucking understand the Constitution, also, your granddad got in bed with the Feds to take land from the Utes so fuck you hard with a spiked dick.

The one thing that may turn me back to Cliven's side is the possibility that this whole thing is an excuse to sell high-dollar mining leases for more Federal dollars. But even then, fuck it, Clem, you fucking rube, go back to 1993 and keep paying the goddamned BLM fees to show good faith for the courts because otherwise they're going to bend you over and fuck you with a spiked dick, you goddamned rube.
Lots if land was "taken" by lots of our grandparents, I don't know why we should start holding that against people *now*.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Timothy » 12 Apr 2014, 10:30

Why the fuck do we ranch in Nevada? Nevada is a barren wasteland. OH WAIT! The feds build a giant fucking dam in the 30s that allows you to actually get water for your fucking cows, Clive. The only reason you can even have a fucking farm is indirect federal subsidy. 20 years ago you stopped paying for the right to have your cows graze on land that isn't yours, and now you're butthurt that they're trying to force you to stop doing something you don't have the right to do? Go fuck yourself.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Ayn_Randian » 12 Apr 2014, 10:54

And they say libertarians are for the little guy.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Warren » 12 Apr 2014, 11:02

Ayn_Randian wrote:And they say libertarians are for the little guy.
We need better poster people
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by GinSlinger » 12 Apr 2014, 11:26

Timothy wrote:20 years ago you stopped paying for the right to have your cows graze on land that isn't yours, and now you're butthurt that they're trying to force you to stop doing something you don't have the right to do? Go fuck yourself.
Twenty years is the term for Federal adverse possession, a key component of which is that one has been paying state taxes on the land (which I believe is being claimed). I believe any adverse possession claim is capped at 160 acres, but still . . . has it been twenty years, and has the family paid state taxes?

Why did the Feds let him go without paying for so long, and why the interest just now?

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 12 Apr 2014, 16:45

GinSlinger wrote:
Timothy wrote:20 years ago you stopped paying for the right to have your cows graze on land that isn't yours, and now you're butthurt that they're trying to force you to stop doing something you don't have the right to do? Go fuck yourself.
Twenty years is the term for Federal adverse possession, a key component of which is that one has been paying state taxes on the land (which I believe is being claimed). I believe any adverse possession claim is capped at 160 acres, but still . . . has it been twenty years, and has the family paid state taxes?
No, here it would have to be 20 years, under color of title, with improvements, and he'd still have to buy the land. I doubt there have been any improvements to speak of.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/43/1068
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/ ... 0Sheet.pdf
Why did the Feds let him go without paying for so long, and why the interest just now?
They missed it. Someone caught it.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by GinSlinger » 12 Apr 2014, 17:02

Doesn't paying land taxes count as color of title? And I would assume the threshold for improvements on ranch land would be low (by homestead standards). And simply missing 20 years of lease payments is, in my mind, a very good argument for abolishing the BLM.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 12 Apr 2014, 17:15

GinSlinger wrote:Doesn't paying land taxes count as color of title? And I would assume the threshold for improvements on ranch land would be low (by homestead standards).
Per the statute, the taxes don't appear to be necessary. And I doubt that ranching improvements would count as either "valuable" or as "cultivation." But I don't know. And all he gets is the right to buy the land at a price the BLM sets. It isn't straight adverse possession.
And simply missing 20 years of lease payments is, in my mind, a very good argument for abolishing the BLM.
Alternatively, the could receive more funding through taxes or have higher fees so they'd have the resources to manage the land under its control.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by GinSlinger » 12 Apr 2014, 17:35

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
Alternatively, the could receive more funding through taxes or have higher fees so they'd have the resources to manage the land under its control.
With revenues of $5B and a budget of $1B, I don't think either of those are necessary. Now, allowing the BLM to retain more of its revenues may mean taxes would have to be raised to pay for something else, but . . . .
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/About_BLM.html

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Mo » 12 Apr 2014, 17:44

GinSlinger wrote:
Timothy wrote:20 years ago you stopped paying for the right to have your cows graze on land that isn't yours, and now you're butthurt that they're trying to force you to stop doing something you don't have the right to do? Go fuck yourself.
Twenty years is the term for Federal adverse possession, a key component of which is that one has been paying state taxes on the land (which I believe is being claimed). I believe any adverse possession claim is capped at 160 acres, but still . . . has it been twenty years, and has the family paid state taxes?

Why did the Feds let him go without paying for so long, and why the interest just now?
Wouldn't a federal suit in 1998 reset the clock?
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Timothy » 12 Apr 2014, 18:04

What the feds are now doing to this guy is fucking crazy, don't get me wrong. I mean, armed tanks and a no-fly-zone over some unpaid taxes? News is now the feds are backing off, which is good. I mean, seems like "seize his assets and call it a day" would've been a better solution than a disproportionate show of force. I'm also not so convinced that Clive is "the little guy", and his entire life wouldn't be possible without rather massive subsidy in the first place, so forgive me if I'm devoid of sympathy for some lunatic.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 12 Apr 2014, 18:07

Timothy wrote:What the feds are now doing to this guy is fucking crazy, don't get me wrong. I mean, armed tanks and a no-fly-zone over some unpaid taxes? News is now the feds are backing off, which is good. I mean, seems like "seize his assets and call it a day" would've been a better solution than a disproportionate show of force. I'm also not so convinced that Clive is "the little guy", and his entire life wouldn't be possible without rather massive subsidy in the first place, so forgive me if I'm devoid of sympathy for some lunatic.
Yeah, I'd go with the freeze his assets and bust him when he comes into town route.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by GinSlinger » 12 Apr 2014, 18:15

Mo wrote: Wouldn't a federal suit in 1998 reset the clock?
Under old timey common law, like pre-Revolution which is what I have a smidge of learnin' about, a writ of eviction would be needed.

But, I finally got the .pdf FFF linked to open and see that to adversely possess BLM land, by statute, one must be unknowingly on said land. This is a different color of title than I was using, and makes it impossible that this could be adverse possession (statutorily).

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 12 Apr 2014, 21:12

Common law adverse possession required open, continuous, exclusive, adverse and notorious (I think "notorious" is simply there to make the acronym OCEAN work) possession for (usually) twenty years; but common law is really only a state thing in the U.S., not a federal thing (Erie Railroad Co. v. Tompkins, 304 U.S. 64 (1938)), and statutory equivalents are, well, whatever the damned statute, be it state or federal, may require.

If anything, though I say this purely ex rectum, the idea of adversely possessing real property against the sovereign is, well, weird.

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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by thoreau » 12 Apr 2014, 22:19

Timothy wrote:Why the fuck do we ranch in Nevada? Nevada is a barren wasteland.
Yeah, I don't get people who would want to live and work in a desert.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by the innominate one » 12 Apr 2014, 22:22

I like the desert, but it isn't conducive to agriculture.
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Re: Waco II: Electric Boogaloo

Post by thoreau » 12 Apr 2014, 22:31

the innominate one wrote:I like the desert, but it isn't conducive to agriculture.
I farm 20,000 head of veal out here in the desert.
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