The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

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Mo
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Mo » 13 Jun 2018, 16:23

Hey don't worry, we got an agreement that is deeper than the ocean, one that can't be described by mere words.
“Not all of that work appeared in the final document,” Pompeo said. “But lots of other places where there were understandings reached, we couldn’t reduce them to writing.” “Not all of that work appeared in the final document,” Pompeo said. “But lots of other places where there were understandings reached, we couldn’t reduce them to writing.”
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by lunchstealer » 13 Jun 2018, 16:43

Aresen wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 10:34
Jennifer wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 03:01
JFC. I'm amazed Trump's arm isn't broken from jacking himself so hard.
He doesn't need to do that.

He's got a whole cabinet and National Security Team to blow him.
So not a dry hand or a dry chin in the house?
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by lunchstealer » 13 Jun 2018, 16:45

thoreau wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 15:38
The Cowen plan for North Korea:
Step 1: Get their leader to pursue his education in Western Europe, and hang around with successful and wealthy Americans like Dennis Rodman.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: FREEDOM!!!
I read that as Michael Cowen.

I feel dirty now.

well dirtier. I haven't felt clean since the primary debates started in '15.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Jun 2018, 18:39

Jennifer wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 15:53
Bending over backwards to give Trump absolute-maximum benefit of the doubt here: I could see that video working to persuade some types of dictatorial people to try improving their countries (again, somewhere in the archives of this very forum are posts I made using similar arguments for why this Un guy just might, hopefully, make things better for North Koreans) -- but Un's had the reins of power long enough to indicate he purely doesn't give a shit about such things.
I didn't think that was the real argument. It seemed more, "Leaders around the world, the ones who think you're a weird little freak who runs a laughable shithole, will start taking you seriously if you have a half-decent country." That and a, "How will history remember you?" argument.

It's targeting a vain man's vanity. That might not work in this case, but it's not a ridiculous strategy. I'm just curious how well that clip show works with the Korean voiceover that the State Department presumably wrote (and was presumably actually played to Kim).
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Jennifer » 13 Jun 2018, 18:58

Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 18:39
Jennifer wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 15:53
Bending over backwards to give Trump absolute-maximum benefit of the doubt here: I could see that video working to persuade some types of dictatorial people to try improving their countries (again, somewhere in the archives of this very forum are posts I made using similar arguments for why this Un guy just might, hopefully, make things better for North Koreans) -- but Un's had the reins of power long enough to indicate he purely doesn't give a shit about such things.
I didn't think that was the real argument. It seemed more, "Leaders around the world, the ones who think you're a weird little freak who runs a laughable shithole, will start taking you seriously if you have a half-decent country." That and a, "How will history remember you?" argument.

It's targeting a vain man's vanity. That might not work in this case, but it's not a ridiculous strategy. I'm just curious how well that clip show works with the Korean voiceover that the State Department presumably wrote (and was presumably actually played to Kim).
Well, yes -- I was trying to make the same point as this, though looking back I realize I did an absolute shit job of doing so -- I'm just saying that Un's been in power long enough that it is unlikely to work. Between his time in the West as a teen, plus the fact that he's one of the very few North Koreans allowed unfettered access to outside-world news -- I'm sure Un already knows he'd get all sorts of accolades from the international community, if he were the one to raise North Korea up out of shithole-dom. I can't find it now, but I seem to recall making a similar optimistic argument here, when his name was first made known to the international community -- "Maybe he'll be an improvement, maybe his time in the west made him realize what the rest of the world thinks of his country and his father" -- whatever optimistic statements I made then have since been proven hopelessly wrong, of course, but I can make the excuse "It wasn't obviously wrong based on the information available at the time." But, of course, the information available now is quite a different matter.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by nicole » 13 Jun 2018, 19:06

"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Jun 2018, 19:09

Jennifer wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 18:58
Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 18:39
Jennifer wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 15:53
Bending over backwards to give Trump absolute-maximum benefit of the doubt here: I could see that video working to persuade some types of dictatorial people to try improving their countries (again, somewhere in the archives of this very forum are posts I made using similar arguments for why this Un guy just might, hopefully, make things better for North Koreans) -- but Un's had the reins of power long enough to indicate he purely doesn't give a shit about such things.
I didn't think that was the real argument. It seemed more, "Leaders around the world, the ones who think you're a weird little freak who runs a laughable shithole, will start taking you seriously if you have a half-decent country." That and a, "How will history remember you?" argument.

It's targeting a vain man's vanity. That might not work in this case, but it's not a ridiculous strategy. I'm just curious how well that clip show works with the Korean voiceover that the State Department presumably wrote (and was presumably actually played to Kim).
Well, yes -- I was trying to make the same point as this, though looking back I realize I did an absolute shit job of doing so -- I'm just saying that Un's been in power long enough that it is unlikely to work. Between his time in the West as a teen, plus the fact that he's one of the very few North Koreans allowed unfettered access to outside-world news -- I'm sure Un already knows he'd get all sorts of accolades from the international community, if he were the one to raise North Korea up out of shithole-dom. I can't find it now, but I seem to recall making a similar optimistic argument here, when his name was first made known to the international community -- "Maybe he'll be an improvement, maybe his time in the west made him realize what the rest of the world thinks of his country and his father" -- whatever optimistic statements I made then have since been proven hopelessly wrong, of course, but I can make the excuse "It wasn't obviously wrong based on the information available at the time." But, of course, the information available now is quite a different matter.
That very well might be the case; I wouldn't bet money against it. It is, however, possible that, after getting his jollies and killing off the people he (whether rightly or not) thought might kill him off in order to take his power, he might actually be in a place to care about his reputation and posterity. It seems at least worth a try, if the potential payoff is a less miserable existence for North Koreans and less danger for that country's neighbors (and less possibility of a war we'd be on the hook for going hot).
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Jun 2018, 19:19

nicole wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 19:06
this motherfucker



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfmyMS2XUAAVW9J.jpg
Meh.

It's said in Trump-speak, but that's basically Trump managing (to my shock) to act like a functional adult with a job. National leaders don't stop to say to a talking head, "Oh, totally, he's an evil motherfucker I wouldn't piss on if he were on fire." when they're negotiating with that murderous fuckknob of a dictator. (Meanwhile, when they're not making friendly with a given dictator, they go on about how the guy's Hitler 2.0.)

That's why journos take exactly that opportunity to needle presidents about it, because they can get a cheap outrage story out of the excuses.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by thoreau » 13 Jun 2018, 19:25

Yes, that's about as diplomatic as Trump has ever been. Two problems:
1) Wouldn't it be nice if he could be at least as diplomatic with frickin' Canada?
2) Even in diplomatic speak, it would be better if he said "Well, yes, there are going to be areas of concern, but meeting to reach agreements on security issues has to be the highest priority for the good of everyone, including the people of North Korea. A safer, more stable world is better for everyone involved, regardless of the other challenges facing everyone."

I guess I should just be glad that Trump didn't say NK needs to be let into the G7.
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The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Mo » 13 Jun 2018, 20:03

Eric the .5b wrote:
nicole wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 19:06
this motherfucker



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfmyMS2XUAAVW9J.jpg
Meh.

It's said in Trump-speak, but that's basically Trump managing (to my shock) to act like a functional adult with a job. National leaders don't stop to say to a talking head, "Oh, totally, he's an evil motherfucker I wouldn't piss on if he were on fire." when they're negotiating with that murderous fuckknob of a dictator. (Meanwhile, when they're not making friendly with a given dictator, they go on about how the guy's Hitler 2.0.)

That's why journos take exactly that opportunity to needle presidents about it, because they can get a cheap outrage story out of the excuses.
That’s not diplomatic because he said the same sort of thing regarding Putin during the campaign. Also, he’s in active negotiations with Canada and his admin is popping off about “special places in hell” for Trudeau because he talked back. He has an affinity for strongmen and human rights abusers. If Assad gave Trump free beachfront property for the Trump Resort Levant, he’d slobber all over his knob too. There’s a difference between praising and silence and could have opted for the latter.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by nicole » 13 Jun 2018, 20:07

Yeah my thing is I think he legitimately falls under these fuckers' spells.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Jun 2018, 21:23

thoreau wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 19:25
Yes, that's about as diplomatic as Trump has ever been. Two problems:
1) Wouldn't it be nice if he could be at least as diplomatic with frickin' Canada?
Sure. That's why I said it shocked me.

That said, Canada isn't a twitchy little country menacing anyone with nuclear weapons. We can afford to diplomatically slag them more, just as they can afford to diplomatically slag us. The results will be silly tit-for-tat stuff. Neither of us is going to actually take our trade, diplomatic, and military balls and go home. Not even Trump is going to kick the Canadians out of NORAD, try to shut down NAFTA, etc. He might actually manage to get impeached if he tried.

Let's check back on his rhetoric if Kim pisses him off like Trudeau did, though. You know, I'm not sure why I have to have the long memory here, but in days of yore, circa AD 2016, he said, "You have this madman over there who probably would use [nukes]... Right now, he's probably got the weapons, but he doesn't have the transportation system. Once he has the transportation system, he's sick enough to use it. So we better get involved." In the deep past of last year, he, to general disapproval, called Kim "Little Rocket Man" and publicly tweeted to the Secretary of State to stop trying to negotiate with him, because the US would "do what has to be done".

I think the love affair you, Mo, and Nicole are painting is more than a little exaggerated.
Mo wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 20:03
That’s not diplomatic because he said the same sort of thing regarding Putin during the campaign.
So, are you and Thoreau now going to start the conspiracizing about Trump's Nork connections?
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Aresen » 13 Jun 2018, 21:40

Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 21:23
thoreau wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 19:25
Yes, that's about as diplomatic as Trump has ever been. Two problems:
1) Wouldn't it be nice if he could be at least as diplomatic with frickin' Canada?
Sure. That's why I said it shocked me.

That said, Canada isn't a twitchy little country menacing anyone with nuclear weapons.
*checks secret bunker under Tim Hortons*

*chuckles quietly (but politely)*
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Mo » 13 Jun 2018, 23:06

Eric the .5b wrote:
thoreau wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 19:25
Yes, that's about as diplomatic as Trump has ever been. Two problems:
1) Wouldn't it be nice if he could be at least as diplomatic with frickin' Canada?
Sure. That's why I said it shocked me.

That said, Canada isn't a twitchy little country menacing anyone with nuclear weapons. We can afford to diplomatically slag them more, just as they can afford to diplomatically slag us. The results will be silly tit-for-tat stuff. Neither of us is going to actually take our trade, diplomatic, and military balls and go home. Not even Trump is going to kick the Canadians out of NORAD, try to shut down NAFTA, etc. He might actually manage to get impeached if he tried.

Let's check back on his rhetoric if Kim pisses him off like Trudeau did, though. You know, I'm not sure why I have to have the long memory here, but in days of yore, circa AD 2016, he said, "You have this madman over there who probably would use [nukes]... Right now, he's probably got the weapons, but he doesn't have the transportation system. Once he has the transportation system, he's sick enough to use it. So we better get involved." In the deep past of last year, he, to general disapproval, called Kim "Little Rocket Man" and publicly tweeted to the Secretary of State to stop trying to negotiate with him, because the US would "do what has to be done".

I think the love affair you, Mo, and Nicole are painting is more than a little exaggerated.
Mo wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 20:03
That’s not diplomatic because he said the same sort of thing regarding Putin during the campaign.
So, are you and Thoreau now going to start the conspiracizing about Trump's Nork connections?
FFS. So the choice is childish taunts or knob gobbling?

Also, Trump loves Duerte. And was buddies with Quaddafi back in the day. So it’s a general trend of loving strongmen. The reason I brought up Putin is because his comments about Kim basically mirror his response when someone asked him about Putin murdering journalists and he responded, “You think our country's so innocent?”
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by thoreau » 13 Jun 2018, 23:30

Wait, he was buddies with Qaddafi back in the day? I suppose it makes sense that two authoritarian assholes with huge egos and terrible taste would be best bros.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Mo » 13 Jun 2018, 23:37

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Jun 2018, 00:31

Mo wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 23:06
FFS. So the choice is childish taunts or knob gobbling?
*shrug* It's Donald Trump. People only exist to please him or displease him. If Trudeau had flattered his ego enough, Trump probably would have spent some time blabbing weird compliments about him or Canada. Probably involving the words "strong" and "smart".

The best evidence for shenanigans with Russia is that Trump doesn't ever start spewing insults at Putin like he demonstrably has for Kim and anyone else who stymies him.

As for liking strongmen, he probably does. It's the most disgustingly American thing about him.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Aresen » 14 Jun 2018, 00:46

Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 00:31
Mo wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 23:06
FFS. So the choice is childish taunts or knob gobbling?
*shrug* It's Donald Trump. People only exist to please him or displease him. If Trudeau had flattered his ego enough, Trump probably would have spent some time blabbing weird compliments about him or Canada. Probably involving the words "strong" and "smart".

The best evidence for shenanigans with Russia is that Trump doesn't ever start spewing insults at Putin like he demonstrably has for Kim and anyone else who stymies him.

As for liking strongmen, he probably does. It's the most disgustingly American thing about him.
But he doesn't like Ahnold

Image
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by lunchstealer » 14 Jun 2018, 00:48

Yeah, that's not diplomatic talk. That's "Look, if he fucks with us, he's gonna get the horns. If he fucks with his serfs, hey who doesn't have some blood on their hands?" It's a reflection of values. Trump values strength and domination, and doesn't value human rights as anything but a wedge to use against people he doesn't like. Strongmen like strongmen when they aren't in direct competition. No bully is pissed at another bully unless there's turf or family involved.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Painboy » 14 Jun 2018, 00:56

My read on Trump is he treats those he perceives as threats and rivals with cordiality while treating those as less so with disdain. It's all part of that "Art of the Deal" crap he seems to live for. He knows he has leverage on Canada and Mexico so uses it every chance he gets to get the "best" deal as he sees it. He has no real leverage on Un or Putin so he makes a show of acting nice and promises big stuff to them that he may or may not deliver.

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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Jun 2018, 01:29

Aresen wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 00:46
Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 00:31
Mo wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 23:06
FFS. So the choice is childish taunts or knob gobbling?
*shrug* It's Donald Trump. People only exist to please him or displease him. If Trudeau had flattered his ego enough, Trump probably would have spent some time blabbing weird compliments about him or Canada. Probably involving the words "strong" and "smart".

The best evidence for shenanigans with Russia is that Trump doesn't ever start spewing insults at Putin like he demonstrably has for Kim and anyone else who stymies him.

As for liking strongmen, he probably does. It's the most disgustingly American thing about him.
But he doesn't like Ahnold

Image
Well, he used to consider him a "great friend".
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Aresen » 14 Jun 2018, 10:13

Painboy wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 00:56
My read on Trump is he treats those he perceives as threats and rivals with cordiality while treating those as less so with disdain. It's all part of that "Art of the Deal" crap he seems to live for. He knows he has leverage on Canada and Mexico so uses it every chance he gets to get the "best" deal as he sees it. He has no real leverage on Un or Putin so he makes a show of acting nice and promises big stuff to them that he may or may not deliver.
He was full of bluster on Kim Jong Un last year and I suspect he will return to that if the things go sideways there.

I think it's more about being a 'tough guy.'

If he loses Nov 3, 2020, the meltdown is going to be spectacular.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Hugh Akston » 25 Aug 2018, 15:28

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