The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

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Aresen
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Aresen » 20 Dec 2018, 15:45

It's not a so much a failure of Trump diplomacy as a failure to recognize that it was doomed to fail.
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JasonL
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by JasonL » 20 Dec 2018, 15:50

Your only hope really was a relatively stable regime collapse before they became nuclear plausible. After that - sorry to say it's appeasement all the way to brinkmanship if actual aggression occurs - no other options.

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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by thoreau » 20 Dec 2018, 17:16

NK's stance is not a failure on Trump's part.

Trump's crowing about the success that never happened is just a giant embarrassment.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Shem » 20 Dec 2018, 18:30

JasonL wrote:
20 Dec 2018, 15:50
Your only hope really was a relatively stable regime collapse before they became nuclear plausible.
That was never going to be possible with Seoul within rocket distance.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Warren » 20 Dec 2018, 19:29

thoreau wrote:
20 Dec 2018, 17:16
NK's stance is not a failure on Trump's part.

Trump's crowing about the success that never happened is just a giant embarrassment.
To whom?
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by JasonL » 20 Dec 2018, 19:41

Shem wrote:
20 Dec 2018, 18:30
JasonL wrote:
20 Dec 2018, 15:50
Your only hope really was a relatively stable regime collapse before they became nuclear plausible.
That was never going to be possible with Seoul within rocket distance.
Right. Something something internal power struggle moderate strongman ... yah i got nothin

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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Mo » 22 Dec 2018, 08:45

JasonL wrote:Nothing else was ever going to be the case. If you are a guy like that guy, there's nothing in the world better than having nukes. No, it's not a particular failure of Trumpian diplomacy. It was always a lie, it always has been a lie every time it's been uttered since the beginning of the regime.
True. But then no need to semi-normalize relations, validate their complaints about joint military exercises with South Korea, lessen pressure on China to keep them in line and legitimize their demands.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by thoreau » 09 Feb 2019, 01:39

Somebody's on the Juche Train:

"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Tuco » 09 Feb 2019, 06:37

How can this guy constantly be weirder than Vermin Supreme?

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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Aresen » 28 Feb 2019, 10:26

Yes, but are the still BFF?
HANOI, Vietnam — President Trump and Kim Jong-un, North Korea’s leader, abruptly ended their second summit meeting on Thursday after talks collapsed with the two leaders failing to agree on any steps toward nuclear disarmament or measures to ease tensions on the Korean Peninsula.

“Sometimes you have to walk,” Mr. Trump said at an afternoon news conference in Hanoi, the capital of Vietnam.

He said Mr. Kim had offered to dismantle the North’s most important nuclear facility if the United States lifted the harsh sanctions imposed on his nation — but would not commit to do the same for other elements of its weapons program. That, Mr. Trump said, was a dealbreaker.

“It was about the sanctions,” Mr. Trump said. “Basically they wanted the sanctions lifted in their entirety, but we couldn’t do that.”
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by JD » 28 Feb 2019, 15:11

North Korea is earning hard currency by sending its people to work as virtual slaves in other countries, with their salaries going directly to the North Korean state (or intermediaries thereof).

https://nltimes.nl/2018/11/08/north-kor ... ch-company
https://nltimes.nl/2018/02/06/dutch-shi ... aves-study
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Shem » 28 Feb 2019, 16:02

They've been doing that for decades in Russia and Africa. Expanding it to Europe is new, though.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by thoreau » 28 Feb 2019, 16:47

How long before they're working at Mar Lago?
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by lunchstealer » 28 Feb 2019, 17:35

thoreau wrote:
28 Feb 2019, 16:47
How long before they're working at Mar Lago?
When was Mar A Lago built?
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by JD » 15 Mar 2019, 14:40

Not sure if there's an emojus for "jaw hitting the floor" but this is some serious spy movie stuff:
In broad daylight, masked assailants infiltrated North Korea’s embassy in Madrid, restrained the staff with rope, stole computers and mobile phones, and fled the scene in two luxury vehicles.

The group behind the late February operation is known as Cheollima Civil Defense, a secretive dissident organization committed to overthrowing the Kim dynasty, people familiar with the planning and execution of the mission told The Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 06dc96b2fb

El Pais has more details, including
At least two of the 10 assailants who broke into the embassy and interrogated diplomatic staff have been identified and have connections to the US intelligence agency. The CIA has denied any involvement but government sources say their response was “unconvincing.”
...
On February 22 at 3pm, 10 masked men carrying alleged imitation weapons broke into the embassy, located north of the capital in the residential area of Aravaca. They tied up the eight people inside and put bags on their heads. The victims were beaten and interrogated.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by thoreau » 15 Mar 2019, 15:05

Wait until the president finds out that the Deep State went after employees of his good buddy Kim Jong Un!

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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Aresen » 15 Mar 2019, 18:27

JD wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 14:40
Not sure if there's an emojus for "jaw hitting the floor" but this is some serious spy movie stuff:
In broad daylight, masked assailants infiltrated North Korea’s embassy in Madrid, restrained the staff with rope, stole computers and mobile phones, and fled the scene in two luxury vehicles.

The group behind the late February operation is known as Cheollima Civil Defense, a secretive dissident organization committed to overthrowing the Kim dynasty, people familiar with the planning and execution of the mission told The Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 06dc96b2fb
I feel sorry for the embassy staff. Not because of the attack but because of what might happen when they get home. Kim is not as forgiving as Vader.
El Pais has more details, including
At least two of the 10 assailants who broke into the embassy and interrogated diplomatic staff have been identified and have connections to the US intelligence agency. The CIA has denied any involvement but government sources say their response was “unconvincing.”
...
On February 22 at 3pm, 10 masked men carrying alleged imitation weapons broke into the embassy, located north of the capital in the residential area of Aravaca. They tied up the eight people inside and put bags on their heads. The victims were beaten and interrogated.
I would consider the reliability of El Pais on a par with the Daily Mail.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Shem » 15 Mar 2019, 22:14

They're pretty safe in the short term. You don't liquidate the bloody shirt.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by thoreau » 15 Mar 2019, 23:15

WaPo claims it was a dissident group.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 86e6f237bf

Of course, that's hardly incompatible with CIA involvement. If the CIA is going to do something like that, they won't send people with US government employee ID cards. They'll use intermediaries. So it could very well be that it was the dissident group alleged in the story AND that some of them have ties to the CIA.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Aresen » 30 May 2019, 22:00

Kim shows how to get subordinates to work harder. I am sure Trump agrees

North Korea 'executes envoy to US' after Trump summit failures – report
North Korea’s special envoy to the US, who was credited with paving the way for nuclear talks with Washington, has reportedly been executed over the failure of the recent summit between North Korean leader, Kim Jong-un, and Donald Trump.

The South Korean Chosun Ilbo newspaper cited unnamed sources as saying that Kim Hyok-chol and foreign ministry officials who conducted working-level preparations for February’s doomed Trump-Kim summit in Hanoi, were executed in March.

Kim Yong-chol, a senior official who had been US secretary of state Mike Pompeo’s counterpart in the run-up to the summit, is said to have been subjected to forced labour and “ideological education”, the newspaper added.
I am giving this one a bit more credibility than most stories out of North Korea because it is the Guardian.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by Shem » 31 May 2019, 00:36

Aresen wrote:
30 May 2019, 22:00
Kim shows how to get subordinates to work harder. I am sure Trump agrees

North Korea 'executes envoy to US' after Trump summit failures – report
North Korea’s special envoy to the US, who was credited with paving the way for nuclear talks with Washington, has reportedly been executed over the failure of the recent summit between North Korean leader, Kim Jong-un, and Donald Trump.

The South Korean Chosun Ilbo newspaper cited unnamed sources as saying that Kim Hyok-chol and foreign ministry officials who conducted working-level preparations for February’s doomed Trump-Kim summit in Hanoi, were executed in March.

Kim Yong-chol, a senior official who had been US secretary of state Mike Pompeo’s counterpart in the run-up to the summit, is said to have been subjected to forced labour and “ideological education”, the newspaper added.
I am giving this one a bit more credibility than most stories out of North Korea because it is the Guardian.
By way of the Chosun Ilbo, which is what you'd get if you took the Wall Street Journal and afflicted it with the curse to turn to the NY Post under the light of the full moon. I mean, I'm not saying they're not dead, because "North Korean bureaucrat commits suicide by falling on a bullet 18 times due to shame of failure" isn't exactly "man bites dog" territory. But if the Chosun Ilbo is breaking the story, I'd give it about as much weight as a story broken by the above-mentioned Post.
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Re: The Not-So- and All-Too-Real World of North Korea

Post by thoreau » 09 Jun 2019, 16:03

One of the guys who participated in raiding North Korea's embassy in Madrid served in the US Marines and had an intelligence job:
In this week’s court files, Ahn’s attorneys described him as an upstanding veteran and community member who could not have personally carried out any violent assault because his right hand was fractured at the time. They also said his time in the Marines wasn’t what it was made out to be in the news media following his arrest.

“Mr. Ahn was no grizzled front-line combatant: During his time as a Marine, he primarily held a desk-bound intelligence job and received no special combat instruction outside of basic training,” they wrote in the filing.
I doubt the attack was specifically planned or ordered by the US government (it came too close to a Trump-Kim summit) but I also doubt it's a coincidence that a guy who did intelligence work for the Marines later gets involved in stealing information from a North Korean embassy. It's likely that people in the US government know who joins this group and keep an eye on what they learn when they do illegal things that nobody with a US government employee ID would ever sanction in official statements.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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