OFFS: The Forsakening

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nicole
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by nicole » 04 Sep 2019, 06:12

Jadagul wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 23:45
nicole wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 23:03

Hm. I guess part of my thing here is that I think the actual protagonists are sort of stupid. Like, Hermione is good, but Harry is essentially a dumb jock and Ron is just dumb to the point where it’s incomprehensible that he’s a protagonist at all.
Harry is an unreliable narrator with self-esteem issues, so he's not aware that he's better than everyone else at a bunch of things, but he clearly is. If you want the books to make sense (yes, I know), you have to assume that he is both natively pretty academically talented---especially in Defense---and also pretty damn charismatic in person. I think this is also the intended reading!

Ron is "good" at being supportive. Just like Hermione is "good" at being smart. You can make a decent case that Ron is Hufflepuff, But Good At It and Hermione is Ravenclaw, But Good At It. (Is Harry Slytherin, But Good At It? I think the books want you to think that, but it doesn't give the Slytherins any actual virtues so it's hard to say what a good one would look like.)
Yeah, I think this is about right. Definitely right about Harry. It would be fair to say he’s less a dumb jock and more that I just thought Quidditch was stupid. I think the Slytherin virtue according to the books is ambition, and Harry does fulfill the “but good at it” qualification there.

Ron though is kind of a shitty Hufflepuff because he’s a jerk like all the time in the back half, and the only quality of Hufflepuffs is niceness.
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Jadagul
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Jadagul » 04 Sep 2019, 06:20

Ron is explicitly stated to be the social glue that holds the trio together. It's true that he doesn't seem very good at it on camera, but that's the point of the book seven sequence where he's gone. But I agree he doesn't seem very nice in a lot of cases. Rowling is...not a very nice person.

One of the big problems with the books is that people want them to be ethically resonant. And they are resonant, in the sense that they uncritically reflect a lot of shallow ethical beliefs people hold. But that doesn't mean they're ethically sound. Rowling is not a deep thinker, and the ethics and mores of the books reflect that.

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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by nicole » 04 Sep 2019, 06:27

Jadagul wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 06:20
Ron is explicitly stated to be the social glue that holds the trio together. It's true that he doesn't seem very good at it on camera, but that's the point of the book seven sequence where he's gone. But I agree he doesn't seem very nice in a lot of cases. Rowling is...not a very nice person.

One of the big problems with the books is that people want them to be ethically resonant. And they are resonant, in the sense that they uncritically reflect a lot of shallow ethical beliefs people hold. But that doesn't mean they're ethically sound. Rowling is not a deep thinker, and the ethics and mores of the books reflect that.
I mean, I don’t think I have quite the same problem with it as other people (I deleted part of my post before posting about how it sounded like I was being really mean to dubs, calling him nice) but I did definitely think the book seven sequence when Ron is gone was like proof that Ron should never be around and Harry-Hermione should be the couple. I should say I probably felt less like that about the book than about the movie though so that’s coloring things.
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JasonL
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by JasonL » 04 Sep 2019, 09:31

We decided at some point that almost all fantasy needs a hobbit. Doesn't have to look like a hobbit but has to be the simpleton with a heart of gold. Sometimes a kid (hi anime!). Sometimes it's Ron Weasley.

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JD
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by JD » 04 Sep 2019, 10:22

Jadagul wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 19:53
The writing is extremely evocative but contains exactly zero details that hang together on closer examination.

The fandom is largely an extended exercise in making up new details to try to make the original make any goddamn sense at all.

But the woman has a gift for gripping and evocative stand-alone details. They make you feel like there really must be a world out there that makes sense that these are a part of. Even though that's false.
Yeah, this is pretty much exactly what I would have said. The HP world is built out of extremely familiar elements (wizards, magic animals, schools, coming-of-age stories) which is part of why it feels so comfortable and unchallenging and easy to get into, but Rowling does have a knack for engaging storytelling which makes it all feel new enough not to be tired. Rowling herself has admitted that she has absolutely zero head for math or details, which explains why most of the hows and whys of the HP world make absolutely no sense at all when you examine them critically. (For example, people have looked at Quidditch and concluded that nobody would actually play it the way Rowling describes.)

But definitely +1 for dhex's race war comment.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Shem » 04 Sep 2019, 13:26

dhex wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 21:59
I've only overheard the book but it's mostly about race war.

I feel like people are fixated on the magic and less the Wizarding world of rahowa
Yeah, I'm definitely in House Why The Fuck Has Nobody Made Sentinels Yet I Mean The British Wiped Out Whole Civilisations For Looking At Them The Wrong Way Jesus Christ.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Painboy » 04 Sep 2019, 13:58

JD wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 10:22
Jadagul wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 19:53
The writing is extremely evocative but contains exactly zero details that hang together on closer examination.

The fandom is largely an extended exercise in making up new details to try to make the original make any goddamn sense at all.

But the woman has a gift for gripping and evocative stand-alone details. They make you feel like there really must be a world out there that makes sense that these are a part of. Even though that's false.
Yeah, this is pretty much exactly what I would have said. The HP world is built out of extremely familiar elements (wizards, magic animals, schools, coming-of-age stories) which is part of why it feels so comfortable and unchallenging and easy to get into, but Rowling does have a knack for engaging storytelling which makes it all feel new enough not to be tired. Rowling herself has admitted that she has absolutely zero head for math or details, which explains why most of the hows and whys of the HP world make absolutely no sense at all when you examine them critically. (For example, people have looked at Quidditch and concluded that nobody would actually play it the way Rowling describes.)

But definitely +1 for dhex's race war comment.
Yeah I remember while I was reading it I was trying to puzzle out how Quidditch worked and some of the rules were just bizarre. The entire Golden snitch part is like a weird separate game on top of the actual game as catching it basically invalidates the rest of the game. It's like there is soccer game going on but on part of the field there is also a baseball game being played where if someone hits a homerun they win the game regardless of what happened in the soccer game.

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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by JD » 04 Sep 2019, 18:59

OFFS. San Francisco declares NRA a 'domestic terrorist organization' in resolution

It's utterly without practical legal effect, of course, but this makes me wonder -
While supervisors will be examining San Francisco's connections to the NRA, the resolution is also meant to pave the way for similar legislation at the local, state or federal level, Supervisor Catherine Stefani, who sponsored the resolution, told USA TODAY on Wednesday.
- if this dim bulb knows what a bill of attainder is.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by lunchstealer » 04 Sep 2019, 22:18

But overall they're kids' books. It's not until the third or fourth book that it even hits YA levels. But they're well crafted yarns, not the poetic edda.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Eric the .5b » 04 Sep 2019, 22:29

Shem wrote:
04 Sep 2019, 13:26
dhex wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 21:59
I've only overheard the book but it's mostly about race war.

I feel like people are fixated on the magic and less the Wizarding world of rahowa
Yeah, I'm definitely in House Why The Fuck Has Nobody Made Sentinels Yet I Mean The British Wiped Out Whole Civilisations For Looking At Them The Wrong Way Jesus Christ.
Because they have an in with (and a whole ministry within) the British government. They can do whatever they want and the rest of the country ignores them.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Pham Nuwen » 04 Sep 2019, 22:47

I'm Slytherin dammit! Ambitious and smart! But I'm also resentful! And I hate white people! And ... oh. Oh! Yeah. I get it now. But yeah. I'm Slytherin. I even have a surgical cap with the slytherin logo.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Warren » 05 Sep 2019, 00:49

God I hate everything Harry Potter.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Pham Nuwen » 05 Sep 2019, 06:54

You hate everything that brings others joy, Warren. There is a competitiveness in you. It's not enough for you to be happy with some or most things in the world. All others must be unhappy.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Warren » 05 Sep 2019, 09:18

Pham Nuwen wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 06:54
You hate everything that brings others joy, Warren. There is a competitiveness in you. It's not enough for you to be happy with some or most things in the world. All others must be unhappy.
I wish I could agree, but it's not so. The first four books are pure dreck and the first movie was worse than the books.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by JD » 05 Sep 2019, 10:13

BTW, I only read the first four and a half books. I dropped the fifth book when I realized I was further into the book than the entire first book was long, and Harry wasn't even back from summer vacation yet. IMO, at a certain point Rowling's editors kind of stopped doing their job. OTOH, Rowling is now a billionaire and I'm not, so that opinion is worth what you paid for it.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Rachel » 05 Sep 2019, 12:36

Warren wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 00:49
God I hate everything Harry Potter.
This is the best thing you have ever said Warren. Harry Potter is THE WORST.
No lie I'm fucking tired of glorified false histories-JasonL

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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Jadagul » 06 Sep 2019, 04:22

JD wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 10:13
BTW, I only read the first four and a half books. I dropped the fifth book when I realized I was further into the book than the entire first book was long, and Harry wasn't even back from summer vacation yet. IMO, at a certain point Rowling's editors kind of stopped doing their job. OTOH, Rowling is now a billionaire and I'm not, so that opinion is worth what you paid for it.
Fun fact: Harry doesn't get to Hogwarts in the first quarter of any book in the series. Some are closer than others, but it always takes way longer than you think for him to actually get there.

I think this is a general rule of book plots, actually. The beginning is longer and the climax is shorter than you remember.

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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Warren » 06 Sep 2019, 10:27

Rachel wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 12:36
Warren wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 00:49
God I hate everything Harry Potter.
This is the best thing you have ever said Warren. Harry Potter is THE WORST.
This is the best thing you have ever said ;)
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Ellie » 07 Sep 2019, 10:15

@tweetsbyrocket
[hogwarts]

plumber: i've come to do the pipes

salazar slytherin: make sure they're big enough for a giant snake

plumber: why

salazar slytherin: no reason
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by dhex » 07 Sep 2019, 20:27

Many years ago the wife didn't believe me about Harry Potter fandic (namely it's existence and volume thereof) and the first story we clicked on was mpreg involving Harry and the British guy who died.

I don't think she's said the word fanfiction again.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Solitudinarian » 08 Sep 2019, 00:11

dhex wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 20:27
Many years ago the wife didn't believe me about Harry Potter fandic (namely it's existence and volume thereof) and the first story we clicked on was mpreg involving Harry and the British guy who died
These are two honest questions: is “fandic” a thing, and what on Earth is it (or do I want to know)?
“I have no Message to reveal. But later on––Who knows?––I might.”

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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Warren » 08 Sep 2019, 00:14

Solitudinarian wrote:
08 Sep 2019, 00:11
dhex wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 20:27
Many years ago the wife didn't believe me about Harry Potter fandic (namely it's existence and volume thereof) and the first story we clicked on was mpreg involving Harry and the British guy who died
These are two honest questions: is “fandic” a thing, and what on Earth is it (or do I want to know)?
I think it's what we use to call slash.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Solitudinarian » 08 Sep 2019, 07:09

Warren wrote:
08 Sep 2019, 00:14
Solitudinarian wrote:
08 Sep 2019, 00:11
dhex wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 20:27
Many years ago the wife didn't believe me about Harry Potter fandic (namely it's existence and volume thereof) and the first story we clicked on was mpreg involving Harry and the British guy who died
These are two honest questions: is “fandic” a thing, and what on Earth is it (or do I want to know)?
I think it's what we use to call slash.
Aha. Grazie mille.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by dhex » 08 Sep 2019, 08:01

Its a typo but a really good one so now it is given life.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Eric the .5b » 08 Sep 2019, 08:35

Solitudinarian wrote:
08 Sep 2019, 07:09
Warren wrote:
08 Sep 2019, 00:14
Solitudinarian wrote:
08 Sep 2019, 00:11
dhex wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 20:27
Many years ago the wife didn't believe me about Harry Potter fandic (namely it's existence and volume thereof) and the first story we clicked on was mpreg involving Harry and the British guy who died
These are two honest questions: is “fandic” a thing, and what on Earth is it (or do I want to know)?
I think it's what we use to call slash.
Aha. Grazie mille.

I couldn't even begin to guess the volume of all fanfic, beyond slash; there are a number of Potter fics that run longer than the actual book series.

Even just slashfic has vast volume and odd niches, with entire online communities around slash for various media properties, and some of them even focused around specific pairings. A friend of mine ran a Discord server and Tumblr community for a specific Teen Wolf pairing. From what I could tell, it rivaled the size of the Hit and Run commentariat sometime before Grylliade started. Slash about that particular pairing wasn't all the slash these people read, but they were interested enough in it to congregate online about it while sharing recommendations and writing more of it.... while, of course, not being remotely all the people writing fic for that pairing.
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