OFFS: The Forsakening

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thoreau
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by thoreau » 03 Jul 2019, 13:55

Fuckwits who don't want to punish rape only help the people who want to eviscerate due process in rape cases. We can't have sanity as long as we have insanity pushed from both directions.
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Jennifer
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Jennifer » 03 Jul 2019, 14:03

Ellie wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 13:54
Jennifer wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 13:33
Sadly, this is not even remotely the only person who thinks "Let's not allow a mere rape or two to ruin the poor rapist's life." After that Steubenville (IIRC) gang-rape, some idiotic news anchor made similar remarks -- ooh, those poor rapist's futures are going to be blighted by this.
Yeah, this is not the only instance of this bullshit, though it might be the most blatant. "We don't want this to ruin anyone's life!" Except the victim whose life has been irrevocably affected. Why not just cut the crap and come right out and say, "Men matter, and women do not."
OTOH, rape apologists aren't the only ones with the attitude "If a man mistreats a woman, the woman is clearly to blame." They're just the ones most likely to generate news stories about their egregiousness.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Eric the .5b » 03 Jul 2019, 15:41

Jennifer wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 14:03
OTOH, rape apologists aren't the only ones with the attitude "If a man mistreats a woman, the woman is clearly to blame." They're just the ones most likely to generate news stories about their egregiousness.
On the the other hand, I'm not aware of any judicial outrage that doesn't harken back to some social attitude fuckery.

Back to the first hand, I'm not big on the term "rape culture" or many of its rhetorical over-applications, but there's something nasty and malevolent growing in this petri dish.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Jennifer » 03 Jul 2019, 15:51

Eric the .5b wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 15:41
Jennifer wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 14:03
OTOH, rape apologists aren't the only ones with the attitude "If a man mistreats a woman, the woman is clearly to blame." They're just the ones most likely to generate news stories about their egregiousness.
On the the other hand, I'm not aware of any judicial outrage that doesn't harken back to some social attitude fuckery.

Back to the first hand, I'm not big on the term "rape culture" or many of its rhetorical over-applications, but there's something nasty and malevolent growing in this petri dish.
"Rape culture" is like "privilege" (in the specific "white privilege" use of the word) -- arguably not the best label, but it is DEFINITELY a real phenomenon.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by lunchstealer » 03 Jul 2019, 17:39

Jasper wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 12:21



David Brooks Tweet: "I only wear New Balance because Nike was a goddess in a Greek culture that practiced slavery."
God damnit jasper, I should never have to feel the shame of chuckling at something David Motherfucking Brooks tweeted. You're probably also the one who piddled in the middle of the bedroom while I had the bed pulled out to clean under it.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by JD » 03 Jul 2019, 18:05

dead_elvis wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 12:54
But a family court judge said it wasn’t rape. Instead, he wondered aloud if it was sexual assault, defining rape as something reserved for an attack at gunpoint by strangers.
You know, even if you don't expect average citizens or cops to know the law, you might expect a judge to know it, and I'm pretty sure the legal definition of rape does not include anything about weapons or strangers.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Painboy » 03 Jul 2019, 19:32

JD wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 11:22
The flap over the Nike "Betsy Ross" shoes is a whole new level of stupidity. The original 13-star flag is offensive because it "has connections to an era of slavery"? It isn't particularly about slavery, it just happens to be of an era when bad stuff was happening...but exactly the same thing could be said of anything that's at all historical. And that's some Maoist bullshit: it's an assertion that everything historical is tainted and unacceptable; the only acceptable things are the things that are ahistorical, newly created and blessed by He Who Makes the Decisions About What Is Acceptable or Not.
When I first heard this I didn't really believe it. I assumed it was just someone taking the remarks of someone at Nike out of context because no way could they make that decision off of such a stupid reason.

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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by lunchstealer » 03 Jul 2019, 19:40

Jasper wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 12:21



David Brooks Tweet: "I only wear New Balance because Nike was a goddess in a Greek culture that practiced slavery."
Oh and double-goddamnit, Jasper, because I just now realized that I only stopped wearing New Balance because I bought a pair of fucking BROOKS. FUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOU this is not okay man.

Fucking David fucking BROOKS.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by lunchstealer » 03 Jul 2019, 19:40

I legit thought that there was some greater rationale, that white supremacists had done some stupid ok-sign bullshit to turn it into a cryptofascist symbol, but... apparently no it's just pretty much every cliche about SJW culture that I've been saying wasn't really a thing?
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Aresen » 03 Jul 2019, 20:34

Well, as a UEL, I am definitely triggered by the Betsy Ross flag.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Jennifer » 03 Jul 2019, 22:48

lunchstealer wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 19:40
I legit thought that there was some greater rationale, that white supremacists had done some stupid ok-sign bullshit to turn it into a cryptofascist symbol,
According to IIRC Buzzfeed, it is.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Mo » 04 Jul 2019, 05:28

Jennifer wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 22:48
lunchstealer wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 19:40
I legit thought that there was some greater rationale, that white supremacists had done some stupid ok-sign bullshit to turn it into a cryptofascist symbol,
According to IIRC Buzzfeed, it is.
But that greater justification is that some white nationalists waved the flag. Like do we give morons veto power over everything? If David Duke recites the "I Have a Dream" speech, does it become racist?
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by lunchstealer » 04 Jul 2019, 08:27

Yeah I think a better response is to have a bunch of liberal groups adopt these symbols as well so there is no way for the Nazis to differentiate.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Jennifer » 04 Jul 2019, 16:16

Here's a bit of good news regarding James Troiano, the judge who didn't want to prosecute a rapist for fear of ruining his life -- apparently an appeals court overturned the ruling. Case is going before a grand jury; hopefully the honorable rapist will be tried as an adult and achieve all the fame he deserves.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Jennifer » 07 Jul 2019, 15:53

Jennifer wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 15:51
Eric the .5b wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 15:41
Jennifer wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 14:03
OTOH, rape apologists aren't the only ones with the attitude "If a man mistreats a woman, the woman is clearly to blame." They're just the ones most likely to generate news stories about their egregiousness.
On the the other hand, I'm not aware of any judicial outrage that doesn't harken back to some social attitude fuckery.

Back to the first hand, I'm not big on the term "rape culture" or many of its rhetorical over-applications, but there's something nasty and malevolent growing in this petri dish.
"Rape culture" is like "privilege" (in the specific "white privilege" use of the word) -- arguably not the best label, but it is DEFINITELY a real phenomenon.
Regarding this -- the idea that "RC" may be the wrong term, but IS a real phenomenon -- here's something a friend of mine posted on Facebook today:
What does rape culture look like? I'll give you two examples from my morning.

First, this morning I listened to a podcast episode that was supposedly about false apologies, but it opened with a man who had difficulty getting his young daughters to apologize authentically telling the story of David and Bathsheba from Old Testament, and his description entailed that David became infatuated with Bathsheba and therefore summoned her to his palace, where he "had his way with her."

Bathsheba became pregnant and David had her husband sent to the front lines of battle where he was killed. God was angry about this, so he sent his prophet Nathan to rebuke David, which Nathan did by telling a story about a poor man who had a pet lamb, which was taken from him by a rich man and turned into dinner for a guest. The point was that David was acting like that rich man. David was like "Oh shit, my bad, God."

The man relaying this story didn't acknowledge that David raped Bathsheba. Nor did he acknowledge that the story Nathan the prophet told to David to rebuke him entailed that Bathsheba was on the level of a pet wrongfully taken from someone and prepared for dinner. This is, note, a man who began the story by talking about his two young daughters. He clearly knew the story of David and Bathsheba well-- one wonders, how did he relay it to his daughters?

Second-- I read an article about how it's still legal in 42 states to have medical students perform a pelvic exam on a woman who is under anesthesia for an unrelated surgery without getting prior consent for it. The article says that the thinking by medical schools was, and I quote, "If you asked patients for permission, they’d say no, and that would deny valuable training to medical students."

So, not only is it okay to perform pelvic exams without consent, but you shouldn't ask for consent because the patient might say no. Because you might not get it.

This is rape culture. Rape culture is not just some kind of systematic refusal to punish rapists within the criminal justice system (though we also have that, up to and including the president himself). It's also the popular belief that consent isn't morally important, let alone necessary. That it's just a troublesome obstacle that needs to be surmounted or, better yet, avoided altogether.

This is what we have to fix. And I have no earthly clue how to fix it.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 07 Jul 2019, 16:08

Wait, what? Medical student pelvic exams are evidence of rape culture? I'm not quite sure whether or why they might do so, but I assume medical students might perform prostate exams on anesthetized male patients during unrelated surgeries, too, and I don't think I'd consider that evidence of prison rape culture.

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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Jennifer » 07 Jul 2019, 16:17

I've read articles about it too (though never linked or discussed them here) -- yeah, I'd say performing gynecological exams on unconscious women who are not even there for any gynecological reason (and justifying it by saying "Well, gee, if we asked they might say no, which would be inconvenient for us") -- is an example of "A view of women which is very much a problem, although 'rape culture' might not be the proper term for it."

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pelvi ... d-consent/
The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American Medical Association, and the Association of American Medical Colleges has each condemned the practice, but it remains legal in the vast majority of American states. While teaching hospitals do provide consent forms indicating that medical students may be involved with their care, these forms do not necessarily require the explicit disclosure of pelvic exams, and often times multiple students will perform the same exam on a patient or perform it in cases when is medically unnecessary:
Ordinarily, consent forms at teaching hospitals will include language to inform the patient that medical students may be involved in their care. Patients are informed that (1) they are receiving care from a teaching hospital and (2) that medical students may be involved in their care … But there are cases where an instructor or attending doctor wants more than one student to examine the same patient or to have students examine patients for whom the particular pelvic examination is not indicated.
Remember a couple years ago, when I had a few physical therapy sessions for that arm-and-shoulder problem? On my second visit -- the one where I first realized "Yikes, even when I think I am 'standing up straight' my posture absolutely SUCKS, at least where my shoulders are concerned" -- there was a student therapist there. The real-therapist had to get my consent before the student therapist was allowed to merely stand there and observe ... and the student wasn't making ANY physical contact with me, let alone going internal, nor did the student get to see various of my body parts usually kept hidden to comply with anti-nudity laws.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 07 Jul 2019, 16:36

Jennifer wrote:
07 Jul 2019, 16:17
I've read articles about it too (though never linked or discussed them here) -- yeah, I'd say performing gynecological exams on unconscious women who are not even there for any gynecological reason (and justifying it by saying "Well, gee, if we asked they might say no, which would be inconvenient for us") -- is an example of "A view of women which is very much a problem, although 'rape culture' might not be the proper term for it."
Maybe, but I'd say it's at least as likely indicative of the attitude of physicians toward patients generally, which is why it would neither surprise nor offend me to hear of med students sticking their gloved fingers up men's assholes in similar circumstances. Tell me there is a salacious intent of any sort in the practice (as opposed to saying it arouses salacious thoughts in the occasional med student or physician) and I'd be more inclined to agree, but if there is any situation in which men are equally objectified, it's as medical and especially as surgical patients. As specific evidence of rape culture, it's not especially persuasive.

And, by the way, however much it fits into a #MeToo worldview, it's unclear whether David "having his way with" Bathsheba did constitute rape for the same reason we must assume not every starlet who gave Harvey Weinstein a "back-rub" was merely a victim but saw the power imbalance as an opportunity for advancement. Yeah, probably it was, and David clearly was no altar boy, having countless concubines and, besides, as Mel Brooks says, it's good to be the king. But your friend from FB is just presuming a fact not clearly in evidence on the historical (or Biblical) record.

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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Jennifer » 07 Jul 2019, 21:07

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
07 Jul 2019, 16:36
But your friend from FB is just presuming a fact not clearly in evidence on the historical (or Biblical) record.
In the specific context of the anecdote she shared -- a modern man telling this story to his daughters as part of an allegedly useful moral lesson (as opposed to a lesson on how attitudes have changed through the ages) -- the fact that of course Bathsheba and David likely had different viewpoints than modern folks is kind of beside the point.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 07 Jul 2019, 23:36

Jennifer wrote:
07 Jul 2019, 21:07
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
07 Jul 2019, 16:36
But your friend from FB is just presuming a fact not clearly in evidence on the historical (or Biblical) record.
In the specific context of the anecdote she shared -- a modern man telling this story to his daughters as part of an allegedly useful moral lesson (as opposed to a lesson on how attitudes have changed through the ages) -- the fact that of course Bathsheba and David likely had different viewpoints than modern folks is kind of beside the point.
Or one might venture that her failure to understand the point of the story, however inappropriate she might think it might be to teach a daughter about confronting and acknowledging guilt, while further assuming the story neatly fit into her own conceptual frame, is on a par with complaining how Hansel & Gretel just doesn't drive home forcefully enough the dangers of eating too much sugar.

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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Eric the .5b » 08 Jul 2019, 06:02

I'm not even sure "rape culture" is entirely the wrong term. I just hate seeing people use it to do things like decry black humor before falling upon a rhetorical fainting couch. There's no shortage of real shit to point at on the subject.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by JD » 08 Jul 2019, 10:47

Apparently some people in the Twittersphere are all bent out of shape about Disney's new Ariel being Black. I'm not sure how much this is a real thing and how much this is another part of the Twittersphere blowing it up, but it would be stupid regardless. Perhaps the most reasonable of the complaints was "This is the Little Mermaid, as in Hans Christian Andersen's Little Mermaid, and he had a pretty clear description of her, which does not look like Halle Bailey", but I still really wanted to ask that person "Did Hans Christian Andersen describe a Trinidadian crab in his story, and do you have a problem with that too?"
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by dhex » 08 Jul 2019, 11:03

there was a good twitter thread about the bot that kicked off some of that but i can't find it at the moment.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Warren » 08 Jul 2019, 11:34

I haven't seen anyone complaining, but all over the internets I've seen shits being lost over people complaining.
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Number 6 » 08 Jul 2019, 15:23

JD wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 10:47
Apparently some people in the Twittersphere are all bent out of shape about Disney's new Ariel being Black. I'm not sure how much this is a real thing and how much this is another part of the Twittersphere blowing it up, but it would be stupid regardless. Perhaps the most reasonable of the complaints was "This is the Little Mermaid, as in Hans Christian Andersen's Little Mermaid, and he had a pretty clear description of her, which does not look like Halle Bailey", but I still really wanted to ask that person "Did Hans Christian Andersen describe a Trinidadian crab in his story, and do you have a problem with that too?"
The issue here is that you're paying any attention to twitter or social media in general.
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