OFFS: The Forsakening

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Aresen
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Aresen » 12 Jul 2019, 13:08

lunchstealer wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 13:06
Aresen wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 10:25
Eric the .5b wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 01:07
I'm just too tired of lefties calling everything they dislike or oppose "fascist" to actually get far into the article. The weak being expected to serve the strong—and for them to be told to act happy about it, and for the society to justify this hierarchy as good and natural—was the norm of human history for thousands of years before dipshits got together in Italy and Germany. It's monarchist propaganda.
What is frustrating with people like the author is their inability to comprehend that democratic majoritarianism is equally unjust.

This is one of the things that most infuriates me with Brexiteers, whose favorite go-to argument is that the majority of the UK voted in favor - once. No matter how much of a clusterfuck it is turning out to be, the Brexiteers keep going back to the democratic mandate.
Not least because most fascist regimes are at least initially democratically installed by a majority of voters - often a large majority.

Also NO REALLY FASCISM DOESN'T HAVE KINGS THAT'S MONARCHY/FEUDALISM.
So...Is Venezuela Communist or Fascist?
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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lunchstealer
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by lunchstealer » 12 Jul 2019, 13:12

Communist/socialist. Fascism also has a nationalist/militarist, usually ethnonationalist flavor, and I don't recall much of that out of Chavez or Maduro. I mean, they're militarist, but in a way that's very socialist-totalitarian rather than the other thing. More Tito less Mussolini.
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Aresen
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Aresen » 12 Jul 2019, 13:37

lunchstealer wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 13:12
Communist/socialist. Fascism also has a nationalist/militarist, usually ethnonationalist flavor, and I don't recall much of that out of Chavez or Maduro. I mean, they're militarist, but in a way that's very socialist-totalitarian rather than the other thing. More Tito less Mussolini.
Chavez was 'internationalist' only as long as the rest of Latin America supported him. As soon as they started questioning him, they became 'lackeys of the foreign devil.'
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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Shem
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Shem » 12 Jul 2019, 13:48

Aresen wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 13:08
lunchstealer wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 13:06
Aresen wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 10:25
Eric the .5b wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 01:07
I'm just too tired of lefties calling everything they dislike or oppose "fascist" to actually get far into the article. The weak being expected to serve the strong—and for them to be told to act happy about it, and for the society to justify this hierarchy as good and natural—was the norm of human history for thousands of years before dipshits got together in Italy and Germany. It's monarchist propaganda.
What is frustrating with people like the author is their inability to comprehend that democratic majoritarianism is equally unjust.

This is one of the things that most infuriates me with Brexiteers, whose favorite go-to argument is that the majority of the UK voted in favor - once. No matter how much of a clusterfuck it is turning out to be, the Brexiteers keep going back to the democratic mandate.
Not least because most fascist regimes are at least initially democratically installed by a majority of voters - often a large majority.

Also NO REALLY FASCISM DOESN'T HAVE KINGS THAT'S MONARCHY/FEUDALISM.
So...Is Venezuela Communist or Fascist?
“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 12 Jul 2019, 13:50

There are, to be sure, analytical differences between fascist totalitarianism and communist totalitarianism worthy of endless debates in academia, but it's still more wrong than right to see their differences and overlook their commonalities. But "facist" is just a boo-word on the left the same way "socialist" is on the right. Yeah, neither fascists nor communists have royalty, per se, though that's a distinction without a difference in North Korea and a few other places I could probably come up with.

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lunchstealer
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by lunchstealer » 12 Jul 2019, 14:11

Aresen wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 13:37
lunchstealer wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 13:12
Communist/socialist. Fascism also has a nationalist/militarist, usually ethnonationalist flavor, and I don't recall much of that out of Chavez or Maduro. I mean, they're militarist, but in a way that's very socialist-totalitarian rather than the other thing. More Tito less Mussolini.
Chavez was 'internationalist' only as long as the rest of Latin America supported him. As soon as they started questioning him, they became 'lackeys of the foreign devil.'
Well sure but it was always in a counterrevolutionary imperialist running dogs sort of way that's not inconsistent with left-totalitarianism. And in his defense the US did actually back a coup against him. Which is the full extent of the defense I will give him, that that one talking point that the US tried to undermine his rule was not wholly inaccurate. Everything else about him is awful. Well I will also defend him in saying that he wasn't as much of an unmitigated disaster as Maduro, except that he set the stage for Maduro by letting him have a position of power in the government so he could take over after Chavez died.
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"We can't confirm rumors that Lynndie England is in the running to be Gina Haspel's personal aide." - DAR

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Aresen
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Aresen » 12 Jul 2019, 14:20

I have always felt that Maduro gets more of the blame for the state of Venezuela's economy than he deserves. Most of the nationalizations and undermining of markets took place under Chavez, who had the good fortune to die before everything actually fell apart.

TBS, I think Chavez would have been worse than Maduro in the ensuing years due to Chavez' monumental ego and his charisma. Chavez would have used more than street thugs on the protesters.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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Mo
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Mo » 12 Jul 2019, 14:32

Chavez set up the kindling, Maduro was around when oil prices drop and sparked the fire.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Shem
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Shem » 12 Jul 2019, 14:43

Aresen wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 14:20
I have always felt that Maduro gets more of the blame for the state of Venezuela's economy than he deserves. Most of the nationalizations and undermining of markets took place under Chavez, who had the good fortune to die before everything actually fell apart.

TBS, I think Chavez would have been worse than Maduro in the ensuing years due to Chavez' monumental ego and his charisma. Chavez would have used more than street thugs on the protesters.
That was always how it was going to be, though.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

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Eric the .5b
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Eric the .5b » 12 Jul 2019, 15:03

Aresen wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 10:25
Eric the .5b wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 01:07
I'm just too tired of lefties calling everything they dislike or oppose "fascist" to actually get far into the article. The weak being expected to serve the strong—and for them to be told to act happy about it, and for the society to justify this hierarchy as good and natural—was the norm of human history for thousands of years before dipshits got together in Italy and Germany. It's monarchist propaganda.
What is frustrating with people like the author is their inability to comprehend that democratic majoritarianism is equally unjust.

This is one of the things that most infuriates me with Brexiteers, whose favorite go-to argument is that the majority of the UK voted in favor - once. No matter how much of a clusterfuck it is turning out to be, the Brexiteers keep going back to the democratic mandate.
This, I don't buy. There wouldn't be a complaint to make about the whole "vote once and disregard that the public now thinks it's a bad idea" business if democracy were no different from monarchy.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by Eric the .5b » 12 Jul 2019, 15:07

Pham Nuwen wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 12:16
I think it's more, "Life is pretty good and you people won't read anything unless it's shocking, stupid, or both. So I will make up pretend outrage that confuses people and want to figure out what I am whining about despite not believing a single word I wrote."
No, it's more, "Things are kinda dangerously shitty right now, so save the word 'fascist' for shit that's actually increasing the shittiness."
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

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lunchstealer
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Re: OFFS: The Forsakening

Post by lunchstealer » 12 Jul 2019, 15:34

Aresen wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 10:25
Eric the .5b wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 01:07
I'm just too tired of lefties calling everything they dislike or oppose "fascist" to actually get far into the article. The weak being expected to serve the strong—and for them to be told to act happy about it, and for the society to justify this hierarchy as good and natural—was the norm of human history for thousands of years before dipshits got together in Italy and Germany. It's monarchist propaganda.
What is frustrating with people like the author is their inability to comprehend that democratic majoritarianism is equally unjust.

This is one of the things that most infuriates me with Brexiteers, whose favorite go-to argument is that the majority of the UK voted in favor - once. No matter how much of a clusterfuck it is turning out to be, the Brexiteers keep going back to the democratic mandate.
I am generally of the opinion that all plebiscites that have huge implications for the populace like Brexit or constitutional amendments or the like should be decided by a supermajority, not a bare majority.
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"We can't confirm rumors that Lynndie England is in the running to be Gina Haspel's personal aide." - DAR

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