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There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 03 Jul 2013, 09:30
by Andrew
Employer mandate delayed

Of course, the fine tax on individuals for not having health care remains in place...

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 04 Jul 2013, 16:31
by Aresen
Andrew wrote:Employer mandate delayed

Of course, the fine tax on individuals for not having health care remains in place...
I am betting that enforcement of the individual mandate will also be postponed until after the November 2014 elections.

At which point, Team Blue will make every effort to pin the awfulness of it on the "GOP Congress".

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 18 Jul 2013, 12:11
by Andrew
The GOP will vote to delay the individual mandate and the employer mandate, Obama says he will veto both.

I've yet to understand how Obama has unilateral authority to delay the employer mandate.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 18 Jul 2013, 14:11
by tr0g
Andrew wrote:The GOP will vote to delay the individual mandate and the employer mandate, Obama says he will veto both.

I've yet to understand how Obama has unilateral authority to delay the employer mandate.
It's good to be the king.

/Mel Brooks

More seriously, due to the way courts have interpreted standing on similar issues, I doubt anyone can bring a court case. So the only other option is for the Congress to impeach for failure to faithfully execute. I won't hold my breath for that to happen.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 18 Jul 2013, 14:25
by nicole
tr0g wrote:
Andrew wrote:The GOP will vote to delay the individual mandate and the employer mandate, Obama says he will veto both.

I've yet to understand how Obama has unilateral authority to delay the employer mandate.
It's good to be the king.

/Mel Brooks

More seriously, due to the way courts have interpreted standing on similar issues, I doubt anyone can bring a court case. So the only other option is for the Congress to impeach for failure to faithfully execute. I won't hold my breath for that to happen.
What are the implications, if any, if he vetoes both bills but the administration still delays the employer mandate? How is that not a constitutional crisis? It seems very, very juicy to me.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 18 Jul 2013, 14:47
by Aresen
It's only a crisis if Congress gets the spine to Impeach.

That is not going to happen, not even if BHO sodomizes an Altar Boy in the nave of the National Cathedral during a nationally televised Sunday service. (Well, maybe if it interrupted the Superbowl broadcast.)

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 18 Jul 2013, 14:51
by Taktix®
Not happening.

Also, I haven't seen much criticism from Team Blue for this. He's taking the side of business in their "Big Business v The Little Guy" dynamic...

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 10:32
by Hugh Akston
Half of death star contractors are part-timers to avoid paying benefits.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 10:52
by Highway
Hugh Akston wrote:Half of death star contractors are part-timers to avoid paying benefits.
Warren Meyer has been hammering that point for a couple years, saying it's coming, and now more people are catching on.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 11:17
by fyodor
Highway wrote:
Hugh Akston wrote:Half of death star contractors are part-timers to avoid paying benefits.
Warren Meyer has been hammering that point for a couple years, saying it's coming, and now more people are catching on.
I wonder if Team Blue will try to pin it on Corporate Greed. That goes down well with the Left, I'm not so sure about the Center.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 11:22
by Taktix®
Highway wrote:
Hugh Akston wrote:Half of death star contractors are part-timers to avoid paying benefits.
Warren Meyer has been hammering that point for a couple years, saying it's coming, and now more people are catching on.
Pure Speculation:

I also remember hearing that working part-time exempts people from the individual mandate. I'll need to double-check that, but if true, that is: if it becomes more cost-effective for both employees and employers to desire part time, is this a back-door way of pushing America toward a European-style work week?

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 11:46
by Ayn_Randian
Taktix® wrote:
Highway wrote:
Hugh Akston wrote:Half of death star contractors are part-timers to avoid paying benefits.
Warren Meyer has been hammering that point for a couple years, saying it's coming, and now more people are catching on.
Pure Speculation:

I also remember hearing that working part-time exempts people from the individual mandate. I'll need to double-check that, but if true, that is: if it becomes more cost-effective for both employees and employers to desire part time, is this a back-door way of pushing America toward a European-style work week?
Working part-time doesn't exempt you from the individual mandate. It exempts the employer from the employer mandate. To be clear, you're required to have insurance no matter what your income. If you are poor enough, you need to be on Medicaid. If you're lower to middle-class, you need to be on the exchanges.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 11:53
by Jennifer
I am not remotely surprised to learn that business owners will be exempt from the mandate, whereas the poor individuals the mandate is allegedly supposed to help will still face fines and/or jailtime for not complying with it.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 12:12
by Ayn_Randian
Jennifer wrote:I am not remotely surprised to learn that business owners will be exempt from the mandate, whereas the poor individuals the mandate is allegedly supposed to help will still face fines and/or jailtime for not complying with it.
Huh? Do you want people who work five hours a week to be entitled to health insurance on their employer's dime? There has to be a cutoff somewhere.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 12:14
by Hugh Akston
I think she's just making the "some animals are more equal than others" point.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 12:19
by Jennifer
Ayn_Randian wrote:
Jennifer wrote:I am not remotely surprised to learn that business owners will be exempt from the mandate, whereas the poor individuals the mandate is allegedly supposed to help will still face fines and/or jailtime for not complying with it.
Huh? Do you want people who work five hours a week to be entitled to health insurance on their employer's dime? There has to be a cutoff somewhere.
What I want is for the individual mandate to be scrapped, because I don't think "not having health insurance" should be a matter for law enforcement. And I'd also like to see an end to this ridiculous bullshit status quo that health insurance is something you get through your boss. (I was re-reading some old threads here, and found the one where I was extremely worried about finances because Jeff had lost his job -- I said something to the effect of "Thank God that fuckhead FDR didn't decide 'auto insurance' should also be provided through your job; Jeff and I cannot currently afford health insurance, but at least we can still legally afford to drive because our premiums didn't become ten times more expensive the second he became unemployed.")

However, if the individual mandate and "get it through your job" rules are to remain, then I'd at least like to see everyone held to the same deadlines: if the employers get to delay mandatory obedience to Obamacare, ordinary people should be allowed to delay it as well.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 12:20
by JasonL
The suspension of the employer side of the mandate is a precursor to punting the individual mandate. I don't think it is sustainable politically or practically to do that unless you want to flood exchanges that won't be ready yet.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 15:19
by Painboy
So who are they going to blame when this glacier of clusterfuck starts rolling over people? I mean aside from libertarians.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 15:28
by Taktix®
Painboy wrote:So who are they going to blame when this glacier of clusterfuck starts rolling over people? I mean aside from libertarians.
Depends who is in office when the glacialfuck becomes evident....

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 15:30
by D.A. Ridgely
Taktix® wrote:
Painboy wrote:So who are they going to blame when this glacier of clusterfuck starts rolling over people? I mean aside from libertarians.
Depends who is in office when the glacialfuck becomes evident....
* cough, cough *

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 15:31
by JasonL
I will be curious to see how what appears to be a complete failure to implement will play in the media where Obama can get away with basically anything. It was his signature move and completely aside and it is appearing impossible to implement completely on it's own merits. This isn't the TP or someone campaigning to erode confidence in the measure - the actual people who actually have to make this happen are saying "this isn't workable built like this". The commitment to preserve employer sponsored plans "if you like your plan you will get to keep your plan" can't work in combination with both mandates and the mandatory coverage pieces. Too many ponies.

I'm on record and still believe that the mandate is the only part of it that really makes sense to me. It offends me much less than someone never paying an insurance premium in their lives showing up looking for healthcare on the public dime. The mandate is the most viscerally disliked yet most reasonable part of the whole thing. The maintenance of employer tax breaks, the defitinions of allowable plan designs, the vaguery of state exchange that apparenly can only offer the two higher priced allowable options under law, the confusion about how to calculate pay out ratios for HSA+HDHP - these are the death by 1,000 cuts you are seeing.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 15:41
by Jennifer
JasonL wrote: I'm on record and still believe that the mandate is the only part of it that really makes sense to me. It offends me much less than someone never paying an insurance premium in their lives showing up looking for healthcare on the public dime.
I'm the exact opposite: the mandate is the worst part of it for me, because now the mere fact "a person exists, and lives in America" is all it takes for them to be legally obligated to become a customer of whatever private company has the right government connections.

EDIT: And, of course, the fact that pretty much everything except the individual mandate looks on track to be postponed or suspended does nothing to reduce my suspicion "Anything that provides yet another excuse for American law enforcement to punish an individual is destined to turn out badly."

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 15:47
by Mo
JasonL wrote:I will be curious to see how what appears to be a complete failure to implement will play in the media where Obama can get away with basically anything. It was his signature move and completely aside and it is appearing impossible to implement completely on it's own merits. This isn't the TP or someone campaigning to erode confidence in the measure - the actual people who actually have to make this happen are saying "this isn't workable built like this". The commitment to preserve employer sponsored plans "if you like your plan you will get to keep your plan" can't work in combination with both mandates and the mandatory coverage pieces. Too many ponies.
It's the evil Republicans' fault for refusing to agree to legislative fixes and only going for a wholesale repeal, obviously.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 15:52
by JasonL
Jennifer wrote:
JasonL wrote: I'm on record and still believe that the mandate is the only part of it that really makes sense to me. It offends me much less than someone never paying an insurance premium in their lives showing up looking for healthcare on the public dime.
I'm the exact opposite: the mandate is the worst part of it for me, because now the mere fact "a person exists, and lives in America" is all it takes for them to be legally obligated to become a customer of whatever private company has the right government connections.
Yup. Ground well covered. I understand your position but do not agree with it.

Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 15:53
by fyodor
JasonL wrote: The commitment to preserve employer sponsored plans "if you like your plan you will get to keep your plan" can't work in combination with both mandates and the mandatory coverage pieces. Too many ponies.
I get the part about the mandatory coverage aspect. I'm not sure if I follow the mandates effect.