There must be a pony in here somewhere.

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Jennifer
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Jennifer » 05 Jun 2019, 16:58

Congratulations to Pfizer for giving SHITLOADS of ammunition to the "Big Pharma suppresses cures because there's no money to be made" conspiracy-types: "Pfizer 'deliberately buried' data showing its arthritis drug might also prevent Alzheimer's 'because it wouldn't have made the pharma giant any money'" (I'm linking to the Daily Mail version of the story; the original ran in the Washington Post, but I've reached my free-article limit for them).

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/arti ... ailymailus
Pfizer, based in New York, in 2015 found its drug Enbrel may have another use
An analysis found people taking it were significantly less likely to get Alzheimer's
But the company didn't do a trial study and didn't tell anyone what it found
The findings didn't come to light until revealed by the Washington Post
Experts say it is up to scientists, not companies, to decide if findings are useful
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Mo
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There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Mo » 05 Jun 2019, 18:28

I have a good friend who works in the industry (for a competitor) and did a bunch of work on the R&D side of pharma firms. I reached out to him privately to see if it’s a legit criticism or media hype. I suspect a little of column a and a little of column b.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Mo
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Mo » 05 Jun 2019, 18:36

Update: Mostly hype, but they should have published.

“It is a drug that would have patent expired before they could finish what would have been a long, expensive trial with very low likelihood of success. At most the obligation would be to publish and maybe to try and find a larger data set to explore the link. My guess is they did some of that and there wasn’t a strong link. Beyond the fact that there isn’t a great biological rationale to test. Or great animal models to test.”

When asked if he meant that the drug didn’t affect the right physiological areas, he responded:

“Yeah. You’d have to believe that there is something in systemic reduction of inflammation that causes it. Beyond the fact that Enbrel and that class have real side effects. There is a strong ethical argument that a large trial might actually cause more harm. (For people in the trial) So not a fan of Pfizer but don’t see how anyone could rationally expect them to pursue this.”
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Dangerman
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Dangerman » 05 Jun 2019, 19:55

That's really interesting, Mo. Thank you.

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Aresen
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Aresen » 05 Jun 2019, 20:22

Mo wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 18:36
Update: Mostly hype, but they should have published.

“It is a drug that would have patent expired before they could finish what would have been a long, expensive trial with very low likelihood of success. At most the obligation would be to publish and maybe to try and find a larger data set to explore the link. My guess is they did some of that and there wasn’t a strong link. Beyond the fact that there isn’t a great biological rationale to test. Or great animal models to test.”

When asked if he meant that the drug didn’t affect the right physiological areas, he responded:

“Yeah. You’d have to believe that there is something in systemic reduction of inflammation that causes it. Beyond the fact that Enbrel and that class have real side effects. There is a strong ethical argument that a large trial might actually cause more harm. (For people in the trial) So not a fan of Pfizer but don’t see how anyone could rationally expect them to pursue this.”
If looks like Pfizer had a 'damned if you do' and 'damned if you don't' dilemma. No choice but to opt out.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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Mo
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Mo » 06 Jun 2019, 03:00

They wouldn’t have run into the controversy if they published the data more widely to let others chase down the path. No obligation by Pfizer to go down the path modestly shitty that they didn’t. But no real controversy. The interesting thin is that Amgen holds the patent in the US and Canada and also didn’t see results that warranted going down the path.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 06 Jun 2019, 16:58

I can see how animal trials may be of value in determining the possible harm of potential Alzheimer's drugs, but I'm a bit unclear what use they could be in determining their effectiveness. Moreover, given that some level of informed consent is required in human trials of any sort, it's unclear to me how they could get human subjects at all unless and until there is a really reliable method of determining early-stage Alzheimer's.

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Mo
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Mo » 06 Jun 2019, 17:47

I mean I don’t know much about Alzheimer’s, but if I were to throw out an ex rectum guess, I believe there are physiological signs of Alzheimer’s (amyloid plaques in the brain). If inflammation in the skull causes the disease and the treatment works, then the test animals would have fewer amyloid plaques and other physiological signs than the control.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 06 Jun 2019, 18:05

Yeah, I'm not saying animal trials would be useless. Medical pharmaceutical research is fraught with all sorts of problems and in the case of Alzheimer's the problem is complicated by the fact that there are so many other causes of memory loss, dementia, etc. of one sort or another in older people. As far as I know, more to the point, Alzheimer's is only definitively diagnosed postmortem, which would make it especially difficult to determine whether a drug is specifically indicated in the disease's early stages.

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Mo
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Mo » 06 Jun 2019, 18:35

But you’re saying you don’t see how they could determine if the treatment was effective. At least one way is by the difference in physiological signs. And yes, all the things you mention is why Alzheimer’s treatments are ridiculously expensive to run. Because they have to span a decade or more before you know if it worked (or more accurately didn’t work).
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 06 Jun 2019, 19:55

Mo wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 18:35
But you’re saying you don’t see how they could determine if the treatment was effective. At least one way is by the difference in physiological signs. And yes, all the things you mention is why Alzheimer’s treatments are ridiculously expensive to run. Because they have to span a decade or more before you know if it worked (or more accurately didn’t work).
At least one of the many criteria of effectiveness is to note differences in physiological signs, but you're still left wondering if the rats or primates or whatever are experiencing mental deterioration commensurate with whatever their baseline mental states may happen to be and, equally importantly, whether that is sufficiently translatable to make a case for human trials. The fact that you can't dispositively diagnose Alzheimer's in its early stage as being that and not something else, however, is far more problematic.

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Mo
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Mo » 08 Jun 2019, 12:12

This is one heck of a correction.
Correction: This article originally stated that the price of Acthar had gone “from just $40 in 2000 to over $40,000 today.” A spokesperson for Mallinckrodt emailed to request a correction that Acthar actually costs $38,892 today. Gizmodo regrets the error. We also regret that every last one of these guys isn’t in prison yet.
https://gizmodo.com/drug-company-to-pay ... 1835274587
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Eric the .5b
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Eric the .5b » 08 Jun 2019, 18:23

Mo wrote:
08 Jun 2019, 12:12
This is one heck of a correction.
Correction: This article originally stated that the price of Acthar had gone “from just $40 in 2000 to over $40,000 today.” A spokesperson for Mallinckrodt emailed to request a correction that Acthar actually costs $38,892 today. Gizmodo regrets the error. We also regret that every last one of these guys isn’t in prison yet.
https://gizmodo.com/drug-company-to-pay ... 1835274587
I'm not clear on the pony aspect. If the accusations are true, I want some punishment laid around, too. If course, any doctors involved would get away with it.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

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Jennifer
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Jennifer » 08 Jun 2019, 22:42

Acthar is used for infantile spasms, which afflict roughly 2,000 babies in the U.S. each year, but Mallinckrodt has expanded the use of Acthar for other ailments like rheumatoid arthritis. A 60 Minutes report from May of 2018 raised serious questions about how well the drug actually works for arthritis in seniors, and an expert who spoke with 60 Minutes said that there’s “no evidence” Acthar works for rheumatoid arthritis despite the fact that Mallinckrodt reportedly makes about $500,000 each year for prescriptions treating the condition.

Curiously, there’s a drug called Synacthen that’s identical to Acthar and sells for just $33 in Canada. So why isn’t Synacthen available in the U.S.? Because Mallinckrodt bought the U.S. rights to Synacthen and simply doesn’t make it available to American consumers.
Hey, Big Pharma, do you guys want socialized medicine? Because shit like this is how you get people demanding socialized medicine.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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JasonL
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by JasonL » 08 Jun 2019, 23:00

Left and right should be able to come together on patent reform and generic shenanigans. They won’t

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 08 Jun 2019, 23:48

JasonL wrote:
08 Jun 2019, 23:00
Left and right should be able to come together on patent reform and generic shenanigans. They won’t
The left loves regulation and the right enjoys captive regulators. It's a marriage made in political heaven.

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