There must be a pony in here somewhere.

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 08 Oct 2017, 20:19

Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 20:16
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 19:57
Saying corporations can have effectively have religious beliefs is the dumbest shit ever. Someone needs to plant terabytes of child porn on Gorsuch's computer.
People don't forfeit their rights because they incorporate.
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Jennifer
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Jennifer » 08 Oct 2017, 20:44

If medical insurance were, like car insurance, something which everybody was expected to get on their own (and could easily and affordably do so), but a handful of employers decided to offer free or greatly-reduced-cost medical insurance as a benefit, the idea that employers can nix entire areas of coverage for their employees wouldn't bother me. But the way the system is set up, getting insurance through your employer is the best/most reasonable option for most people, it's considered part of your compensation package (to the point where many people will say "Hey, quit complaining about wage stagnation; health insurance is way more expensive, and your employer's increased cost of overage is why your take-home pay isn't rising") -- it's effectively part of the woman's salary, the woman herself is expected to shell out money for it as well, yet STILL, the employer's bigotries take precedence over the woman's actual medical needs? Fuck that noise.
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Jennifer
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Jennifer » 08 Oct 2017, 21:12

Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 20:16
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 19:57
Saying corporations can have effectively have religious beliefs is the dumbest shit ever. Someone needs to plant terabytes of child porn on Gorsuch's computer.
People don't forfeit their rights because they incorporate.
No, but the person and the corporation are presumably two completely different entities. As I understand it, it's like this: say you own some houses and want to rent them out for income. The wise thing to do is incorporate; it's not "Warren the person" who owns and rents out those houses, but "the Warren Corporation." And the benefit there is, if some tenant sues for whatever reason, the Warren Corporation might lose everything, but Warren the person does not; you and your spouse/significant other/kids still keep your home and savings and the kids' college accounts and whatnot -- though the Warren Corporation might lose all its assets including those houses you rent out for income. Your business assets are at risk, but at least your personal assets are not.

The Warren Corporation already gets certain legally granted privileges from the government -- namely, the privilege of fucking up without causing financial damage to Warren the person. But, while Warren the person is surely free to have his religious beliefs, and even be a bigot if you wish (no inviting gay folks to dinner, say), the Warren Corporation should not get to put Warren the person's bigotries into play -- Warren the person doesn't have to invite gay folks to his house if he doesn't want to, but the Warren Corporation shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against gay folks in renting. Nor should any fucked-up ideas Warren the Person might have about women and women's sex lives be granted the legal privileges and immunities of the Warren Corporation.
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thoreau
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by thoreau » 08 Oct 2017, 21:18

What are the religious beliefs of a publicly traded corporation? Presumably Mammon worship, and maybe Objectivism.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by thoreau » 08 Oct 2017, 21:21

If a corporation has all the same rights as a person, does the 13th Amendment protect it from being bought by other people and made to perform work for its owners?

Can it run for Congress, to hasten the inevitable sci-fi dystopia?
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by thoreau » 08 Oct 2017, 21:22

Do polygamy laws forbid multiple corporate mergers?
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 08 Oct 2017, 21:22

thoreau wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 21:18
What are the religious beliefs of a publicly traded corporation? Presumably Mammon worship, and maybe Objectivism.
Since Calpers is probably the largest owner, probably crystals or some shit.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by thoreau » 08 Oct 2017, 21:23

If I start a corporation to run a restaurant, do I have to wait until the corporation has existed for 21 years before I buy alcohol to sell to guests?
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by thoreau » 08 Oct 2017, 21:24

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
thoreau wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 21:18
What are the religious beliefs of a publicly traded corporation? Presumably Mammon worship, and maybe Objectivism.
Since Calpers is probably the largest owner, probably crystals or some shit.
Nice.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by thoreau » 08 Oct 2017, 21:27

Could a corporation receive a commission in the armed forces and become a commander, to further hasten the inevitable sci-fi dystopia?
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by thoreau » 08 Oct 2017, 21:27

Can Kris Kobach disenfranchise a corporation?
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Jennifer
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Jennifer » 08 Oct 2017, 21:28

Can a corporation marry another corporation, thus gaining the privilege of not having to testify against its spouse in court?
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Jennifer » 08 Oct 2017, 21:43

In all seriousness, I've been seeing what I consider to be a sort of false-equivalency arguments in support of the "employers get to pick and choose what standard medical treatments they'll cover" idea -- like this one tweet I saw saying "My employer is restricting access to food because they won’t pay for it. Also, they’ve made me homeless b/c they won’t pay rent directly." The difference, of course, is that the government hasn't set up a system ensuring that food and rent are well-nigh unaffordable for ordinary people, but can only be had through your employer's group-discount purchasing power. "My apartment only costs us $960 per month through Jeff's job's Housing Insurance Program, but if we had to pay the bill ourselves, the rent would skyrocket to $9,600 for the exact same apartment."

If that's how food and housing were paid for in the US then yes, I would think it fair to say "If my employer refuses to cover the rent on apartments with automatic dishwashers, that's effectively the same as saying 'My employer won't let its employees have automatic dishwashers'."
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Mo
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Mo » 08 Oct 2017, 21:44

You guys joke, but the religion thing is ridiculous because a corporation can't have a religion. However, the government can't restrict rights that corporations can engage in, like press or speech.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by thoreau » 08 Oct 2017, 21:49

Mo wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 21:44
You guys joke, but the religion thing is ridiculous because a corporation can't have a religion. However, the government can't restrict rights that corporations can engage in, like press or speech.
Of course. The point is that you have to distinguish between things that are attributes or activities of an individual and things that are attributes or activities of an incorporated business. And the separation of the personal from the commercial is one of the most important aspects of the corporate form of organization.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by thoreau » 08 Oct 2017, 21:53

Though I do wonder when corporate personhood will be extended to political office, bringing about the penultimate stages of sci-fi dystopia...
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by lunchstealer » 08 Oct 2017, 21:56

Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 20:16
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 19:57
Saying corporations can have effectively have religious beliefs is the dumbest shit ever. Someone needs to plant terabytes of child porn on Gorsuch's computer.
People don't forfeit their rights because they incorporate.
I will preface this with the caveat that employers shouldn't have any incentives or requirements to have anything to do with employees' health choices at all.

I've always been skeptical of the idea that the money that goes into employees' insurance is the employer's any more than the money that goes into their paycheck is. If the employee chooses to spend that money on birth control, the employer still paid into a fund that was used to buy birth control. It's just that the fund was their personal holdings instead of their insurance company's holdings before being spent on birth control. It's not their money.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by dbcooper » 08 Oct 2017, 22:42

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 21:22
thoreau wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 21:18
What are the religious beliefs of a publicly traded corporation? Presumably Mammon worship, and maybe Objectivism.
Since Calpers is probably the largest owner, probably crystals or some shit.
:)
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Sandy » 08 Oct 2017, 22:53

I smell a bunch of people who have never owned a business in this thread.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 08 Oct 2017, 23:43

Perhaps it's worth noting that NGOs, hospitals, labor unions and churches are all coorporations. The last most certainly can be said to have religious beliefs, though that's just shorthand for the religious beliefs of the members and leadership. The history of corporations, at least in Anglo American law, is interesting because it has more to do with inheritance and tax evasion directly related to inheritances. For the most part, it's an unfortunate accident of history that corporations are have been called persons. It need not have been the case and I'm not sure we would have been having the same political arguments and a different word been used.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Warren » 09 Oct 2017, 00:47

Could a corporation be required to provide matching donations to their employees' churches I wonder?
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Re: Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 09 Oct 2017, 01:25

Warren wrote:Could a corporation be required to provide matching donations to their employees' churches I wonder?
No.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by lunchstealer » 09 Oct 2017, 04:14

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 23:43
Perhaps it's worth noting that NGOs, hospitals, labor unions and churches are all coorporations. The last most certainly can be said to have religious beliefs, though that's just shorthand for the religious beliefs of the members and leadership. The history of corporations, at least in Anglo American law, is interesting because it has more to do with inheritance and tax evasion directly related to inheritances. For the most part, it's an unfortunate accident of history that corporations are have been called persons. It need not have been the case and I'm not sure we would have been having the same political arguments and a different word been used.

Psychically transmitted over the aether via highly sophisticated magic.
Churches have pretty much always had the exemption, though.

Still, I think the exemption should only take the form of 'OK, push your employees to the exchanges.' and then that exemption should be extended to literally any company that wants to take it. Employers who wanted to sweeten the pot for their employees who they push to the exchanges could offer gap coverage so the employees could buy the cheapo exchange stuff.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Dangerman » 09 Oct 2017, 08:45

I just want pricing at time of service.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Painboy » 09 Oct 2017, 10:34

Dangerman wrote:
09 Oct 2017, 08:45
I just want pricing at time of service.
Sing it brother!

Seriously this is easily the worst thing about the insurance/provider partnership to me. If I ask for a price for something I don't want to hear it costs somewhere between $50 and $750. That's not something I can realistically plan for.

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