Observations of the Random sort

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nicole
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by nicole » 10 Aug 2017, 10:04

Dangerman wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 09:46
Do you believe whatever your company officially believes in?
Less all the time. As I said, most people care more about money than principles.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Aresen » 10 Aug 2017, 10:10

JasonL wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 08:24
It is the nature of the left to squeeze the gap between conservative and alt right though. White supremacist etc.
*shrug* And the right likes to pretend that everyone who favors any form of social welfare is a budding stalinist.

It's sportsbar all the way down.
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JasonL
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by JasonL » 10 Aug 2017, 10:13

There's an element of how central the belief in question is to the culture and brand of the firm and also an element of "are you messing with the brand because your dispute is public or are you messing with culture because you are soliciting others to join you in some kind of movement management doesn't agree with". That is, having a belief or even expressing it in constrained situations is not that big of a deal. Proselytizing or bringing publicity is bad.

The problem we face these days is everything is shareable and public.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by JasonL » 10 Aug 2017, 10:16

Aresen wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 10:10
JasonL wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 08:24
It is the nature of the left to squeeze the gap between conservative and alt right though. White supremacist etc.
*shrug* And the right likes to pretend that everyone who favors any form of social welfare is a budding stalinist.

It's sportsbar all the way down.
It is, but I would disagree with the suggestion that this particular thing is equally distributed among the teams. This thing, making everything racist, sexist, white supremacy, etc. is a core strategy of the left over the past decade. It's what identity politics is and that's a baby of the left.

Don't disagree that the right has similar looking behviors in some areas.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Dangerman » 10 Aug 2017, 10:55

I don't think I have the principle that a corporate mission statement is a real set of beliefs that impose on the employees, unless that mission is 'Make great widgets!'. There's nothing to what a company 'believes', only to what it does. So if you work for a death camp construction company, that's a moral issue, but if you work for a search engine provider, I don't think that what 'Google believes' is real, or any concern of the employees, because the product or service, the actual interaction with humans, is what is judged to be moral or virtuous.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by JasonL » 10 Aug 2017, 10:59

Untrue in service industries in which there is asymmetrical information. There are things baked into a brand that convey things to customers about the kind of place you are. In financial services, some go with "we do all the crazy stuff you want" while others go with "we are looking out for your interests". Things you express in public can run counter to those overall stories and in extreme cases can cause real financial harm.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by nicole » 10 Aug 2017, 12:11

Dangerman wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 10:55
I don't think I have the principle that a corporate mission statement is a real set of beliefs that impose on the employees, unless that mission is 'Make great widgets!'. There's nothing to what a company 'believes', only to what it does. So if you work for a death camp construction company, that's a moral issue, but if you work for a search engine provider, I don't think that what 'Google believes' is real, or any concern of the employees, because the product or service, the actual interaction with humans, is what is judged to be moral or virtuous.
I didn't mean to suggest this was about mission statements. "What Google does" includes "discriminate on the basis of sex and race to please people who believe in discriminating on the basis of sex and race." Damore says he thinks this is wrong. Part of the value he adds to the company goes toward the office of the diversity VP whose work he thinks is offensive. Assuming the screenshots at Breitbart are authentic (and I've seen claims this has been corroborated), all or almost all of the value he adds to the company ultimately contributes to the ongoing power of people who want to stamp out his ideas (i.e., the middle managers who enjoy enough power and security that they semi-publicly proclaim their blacklists). And of course this all trickles down to Google's products as well.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by nicole » 10 Aug 2017, 12:13

JasonL wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 10:13
There's an element of how central the belief in question is to the culture and brand of the firm and also an element of "are you messing with the brand because your dispute is public or are you messing with culture because you are soliciting others to join you in some kind of movement management doesn't agree with". That is, having a belief or even expressing it in constrained situations is not that big of a deal. Proselytizing or bringing publicity is bad.

The problem we face these days is everything is shareable and public.
I agree with this, I just think a wiser person would have realized he had already lost the battle here and should either shut up or leave.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by lunchstealer » 10 Aug 2017, 12:16

Sandy wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 09:56
Mo wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 07:10
Sandy wrote:
09 Aug 2017, 23:43
Mo wrote:
09 Aug 2017, 18:19
It's so weird that all of the Conservatives upset about Damore being fired also are tickled pink about Kaepernick being unable to get a QB job because of his protest.
Just like how all the people who are perfectly OK with blacklisting Damore also think the Hollywood blacklist was a bad thing.

Der sportzbar ist krieg.
That's a false equivalence. Individual actions vs. sus pected group membership. I suspect the group of people that would be OK with a blanket blacklist of suspected conservatives would be small, but a the group that would support a blanket blacklist for suspected alt-righters would be distressingly large.
Bullshit. Membership in a group is an individual activity. There was always a "reason" someone was suspected, and that reason was always wrong think.

But either way, hey, free association, right?
Was the Damore thing done with company people on company equipment on company time?

I think there's probably a bit of a difference between stirring a bunch of disruptive shit up by starting an argument between progressives and conservatives on Google time or rabble rousing for socialism while people are trying to make a movie, and Damore writing his manifesto on his own blog from home with no connection to the company or a socialist going to socialist meetings on the weekend or handing out flyers whenever.

I'm more on the freedom of association side, but there are levels of appropriateness. Blackballing someone for private behavior is different from firing someone for causing a ruckus at work.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Highway » 10 Aug 2017, 12:27

Is that what those emails said? It seemed to me that a lot of them were people on the "same side" as Damore saying that they had their own blacklists. So basically there were two 'extreme' factions having a blacklist battle.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by thoreau » 10 Aug 2017, 12:47


Highway wrote:So basically there were two 'extreme' factions having a blacklist battle.
This will come to no good.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Dangerman » 10 Aug 2017, 13:02

Damore made the post on a board for posting about company stuff. If you're allowed (or encouraged) to discuss the topics of the day at work, it's pretty shitty to say that you are only allowed to talk positively or that your opinions aren't correct enough to be expressed on company time. If you ask for feedback, don't punish people for giving it.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by JasonL » 10 Aug 2017, 13:39

Ahaha. Yeah. Give feedback never ever means what you suggested there. I remember when I thought it did and woo I learned otherwise. Neophyte- candid commentary. Median employee - don't say shit. Tenured with positive reputation: candid feedback to the correct parties in politically astute language.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by nicole » 10 Aug 2017, 13:54

JasonL wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 13:39
Ahaha. Yeah. Give feedback never ever means what you suggested there. I remember when I thought it did and woo I learned otherwise. Neophyte- candid commentary. Median employee - don't say shit. Tenured with positive reputation: candid feedback to the correct parties in politically astute language.
Right.

And if you don't like that, and you think you are adding value to build and sustain an enterprise you don't actually like, you should think about whether you really want to do that.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by lunchstealer » 10 Aug 2017, 13:59

JasonL wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 13:39
Ahaha. Yeah. Give feedback never ever means what you suggested there. I remember when I thought it did and woo I learned otherwise. Neophyte- candid commentary. Median employee - don't say shit. Tenured with positive reputation: candid feedback to the correct parties in politically astute language.
Yeah that's just the shittiness of work.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by JasonL » 10 Aug 2017, 14:34

I don't see it as inherently shitty because groups imply divergent views, and to the extent specific views form an Official Position that is brand or culture relevant, divergent views should be handled in ways other than going on blast. It is a particular form of autistic inclination that expresses frustration that you can't say whatever you want whenever you want in the language you want and nobody important should ever get upset with you. If you are seeking to influence rather than grandstand you need to use the tools of influence which do not include saying 'your baby is ugly' to the largest group possilbe.

If you have a fundamental view that differs so strongly from established culture that you can't stand waiting for influence, yes, you should think about that pretty hard. In most cases, though, there are tradeoffs and it simply isn't the case that the principled choice is full blast blurting out or quit.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Dangerman » 10 Aug 2017, 14:55

He didn't go on blast, though. He posted in a place where that kind of discussion was happening (afaict).
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 10 Aug 2017, 15:24

Highway wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 12:27
Is that what those emails said? It seemed to me that a lot of them were people on the "same side" as Damore saying that they had their own blacklists. So basically there were two 'extreme' factions having a blacklist battle.
Do you have a link to the Damore side having blacklists? I've only seen ones saying Damore is on theirs, as was everyone supporting him.

I can of course believe it, since on "his side" are everybody who doesn't believe in complete blank slate-ism, including wackos who believe in complete genetic essentialism, aka the alt right and various flavors of racists.
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Observations of the Random sort

Post by Mo » 10 Aug 2017, 15:28

Dangerman wrote:Damore made the post on a board for posting about company stuff. If you're allowed (or encouraged) to discuss the topics of the day at work, it's pretty shitty to say that you are only allowed to talk positively or that your opinions aren't correct enough to be expressed on company time. If you ask for feedback, don't punish people for giving it.
That's adorable.

"Why did you say that I have a fat ass?"
"You asked me how you looked"
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Mo » 10 Aug 2017, 15:34

Sandy wrote:
Mo wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 07:10
Sandy wrote:
09 Aug 2017, 23:43
Mo wrote:
09 Aug 2017, 18:19
It's so weird that all of the Conservatives upset about Damore being fired also are tickled pink about Kaepernick being unable to get a QB job because of his protest.
Just like how all the people who are perfectly OK with blacklisting Damore also think the Hollywood blacklist was a bad thing.

Der sportzbar ist krieg.
That's a false equivalence. Individual actions vs. sus pected group membership. I suspect the group of people that would be OK with a blanket blacklist of suspected conservatives would be small, but a the group that would support a blanket blacklist for suspected alt-righters would be distressingly large.
Bullshit. Membership in a group is an individual activity. There was always a "reason" someone was suspected, and that reason was always wrong think.

But either way, hey, free association, right?
Do you even know what the Hollywood blacklist was? It wasn't a ban on people with membership in the CPUSA, it was a ban on people accused of having membership or ties to Communists. The equivalent would be blacklisting gryllers because we may have ties to alt-right people because we're loosely tied to Reason which is associated with the alt-right because of commenters.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

i believe applebees feels the same way about food, a pyschosexual ballet of pain, fear, and $5.99 appetizers. - dhex

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 10 Aug 2017, 15:42

Mo wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 15:34
Sandy wrote:
Mo wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 07:10
Sandy wrote:
09 Aug 2017, 23:43
Mo wrote:
09 Aug 2017, 18:19
It's so weird that all of the Conservatives upset about Damore being fired also are tickled pink about Kaepernick being unable to get a QB job because of his protest.
Just like how all the people who are perfectly OK with blacklisting Damore also think the Hollywood blacklist was a bad thing.

Der sportzbar ist krieg.
That's a false equivalence. Individual actions vs. sus pected group membership. I suspect the group of people that would be OK with a blanket blacklist of suspected conservatives would be small, but a the group that would support a blanket blacklist for suspected alt-righters would be distressingly large.
Bullshit. Membership in a group is an individual activity. There was always a "reason" someone was suspected, and that reason was always wrong think.

But either way, hey, free association, right?
Do you even know what the Hollywood blacklist was? It wasn't a ban on people with membership in the CPUSA, it was a ban on people accused of having membership or ties to Communists. The equivalent would be blacklisting gryllers because we may have ties to alt-right people because we're loosely tied to Reason which is associated with the alt-right because of commenters.
Yes, I'm aware. And it was all based on vaguely lefty activity used to justify belief they had ties to Communists. Or if they used the same hashtag that someone else used when they said mean things about a young female game critic. But nobody would ever tar everyone like that with the same brush and find it perfectly OK, right?
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Aresen » 10 Aug 2017, 15:57

Sandy wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 15:42
Yes, I'm aware. And it was all based on vaguely lefty activity used to justify belief they had ties to Communists. Or if they used the same hashtag that someone else used when they said mean things about a young female game critic. But nobody would ever tar everyone like that with the same brush and find it perfectly OK, right?
By the current standards of evidence, you could make Elizabeth Warren part of the alt-right and Jeff Sessions part of Antifa if you wanted to.

BTW, when's the next meeting of the Grylliade chapter of the Illuminati? I hope it's not Wednesday. I've got a movie date on Wednesday.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Jasper » 10 Aug 2017, 16:37

Mo wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 15:28
Dangerman wrote:Damore made the post on a board for posting about company stuff. If you're allowed (or encouraged) to discuss the topics of the day at work, it's pretty shitty to say that you are only allowed to talk positively or that your opinions aren't correct enough to be expressed on company time. If you ask for feedback, don't punish people for giving it.
That's adorable.

"Why did you say that I have a fat ass?"
"You asked me how you looked"
No need to be a condescending prick. Not everyone is up to speed on corp-speak, corp-culture, or office politicking in Fortune 500 companies. Or cares.

Should the guy have maybe known better? Sure. But there's an argument to be had about a company that basically runs the internet having an intranet full of forums and spaces that mimic the rest of the world. Don't be shocked, SHOCKED!, when employees talking politics and culture war in company spaces maybe get a little edgy and it leaks out.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Jennifer » 10 Aug 2017, 16:46

Jasper wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 16:37
Mo wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 15:28
Dangerman wrote:Damore made the post on a board for posting about company stuff. If you're allowed (or encouraged) to discuss the topics of the day at work, it's pretty shitty to say that you are only allowed to talk positively or that your opinions aren't correct enough to be expressed on company time. If you ask for feedback, don't punish people for giving it.
That's adorable.

"Why did you say that I have a fat ass?"
"You asked me how you looked"
No need to be a condescending prick. Not everyone is up to speed on corp-speak, corp-culture, or office politicking in Fortune 500 companies. Or cares.

Should the guy have maybe known better? Sure. But there's an argument to be had about a company that basically runs the internet having an intranet full of forums and spaces that mimic the rest of the world. Don't be shocked, SHOCKED!, when employees talking politics and culture war in company spaces maybe get a little edgy and it leaks out.
On the other hand, Damore's screed specifically and explicitly blames "Marxist intellectuals" (exact quote) for any modern concerns about racism or sexism. As I said upthread, I don't think anybody wants to see a world where the mere "expression of an unpopular opinion" ruins one's professional chances -- but on the other hand, what is a company (or allegedly inferior colleagues) supposed to do, when that opinion is "Certain of my colleagues and/or customers are inherently inferior people, and if you believe otherwise, you're spreading Marxist propaganda?"

I recall a similar conundrum a couple years back, when an executive at Mozilla (IIRC) was let go because it turned out he was donating time and money to anti-gay-marriage political groups -- it sucks that someone lost his job merely for an unpopular opinion, but on the other hand that specific opinion was "Certain of my fellow citizens -- many of whom work for this company, or use this company's products -- don't deserve full equal legal rights." Are the "un-equal" people in question being oppressors, if they say "Y'know, I really don't want to work for or with a man who is so convinced of my inherent inferiority?" Or "Given how many identical products there are on the market, I choose to use the product made by executives who don't work to deprive me of equal rights?"
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nicole
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by nicole » 10 Aug 2017, 16:54

Jennifer wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 16:46
Jasper wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 16:37
Mo wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 15:28
Dangerman wrote:Damore made the post on a board for posting about company stuff. If you're allowed (or encouraged) to discuss the topics of the day at work, it's pretty shitty to say that you are only allowed to talk positively or that your opinions aren't correct enough to be expressed on company time. If you ask for feedback, don't punish people for giving it.
That's adorable.

"Why did you say that I have a fat ass?"
"You asked me how you looked"
No need to be a condescending prick. Not everyone is up to speed on corp-speak, corp-culture, or office politicking in Fortune 500 companies. Or cares.

Should the guy have maybe known better? Sure. But there's an argument to be had about a company that basically runs the internet having an intranet full of forums and spaces that mimic the rest of the world. Don't be shocked, SHOCKED!, when employees talking politics and culture war in company spaces maybe get a little edgy and it leaks out.
On the other hand, Damore's screed specifically and explicitly blames "Marxist intellectuals" (exact quote) for any modern concerns about racism or sexism. As I said upthread, I don't think anybody wants to see a world where the mere "expression of an unpopular opinion" ruins one's professional chances -- but on the other hand, what is a company (or allegedly inferior colleagues) supposed to do, when that opinion is "Certain of my colleagues and/or customers are inherently inferior people, and if you believe otherwise, you're spreading Marxist propaganda?"
Have you actually read the memo?
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