Observations of the Random sort

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 20275
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Jennifer » 21 Sep 2017, 05:07

Shem wrote:
21 Sep 2017, 02:56
Jennifer wrote:
20 Sep 2017, 21:08
Regarding the free will discussion, I'd think the fact that people can and do (sometimes) learn from past mistakes goes into the "yes, free will exists" category.
But what is "learning?" If there's no such thing as consciousness, and what we think of as self is just an emergent property of our meat computers, to say that you learned from an experience is like saying your computer learned when you installed Word onto it. The computer didn't learn, it just got changed. Just like how, under the Commeatdore 64 framework, it wasn't you learning, it was external events applying programming to you.
But computers are consistent about it, whereas people are not. That's why I added the "sometimes" about learning from mistakes. If we were just computers, then if action X results in bad outcome Y, it's easy to program "henceforth, avoid X." But only some people do. Others don't. Still others get around to it eventually, but they have to experience bad outcome Y several times before finally figuring out "Stop doing X."
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 20796
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by JasonL » 21 Sep 2017, 10:29

You can be conscious or self aware and still not be able in any real sense to choose other than you chose. Deterministic also doesn't mean optimal. You went left last time you went home and this time you went right. Your perception may be that you chose right this time because you thought left took too long. You perceived you learned something. What may have happened is there was no real way for you to do other than left first then right and that sequence was going to happen period.

User avatar
JD
Posts: 9540
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:26

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by JD » 21 Sep 2017, 13:58

Aresen wrote:
20 Sep 2017, 13:18
You simply cannot have an organized society without an implicit assumption of agency on some level. If you do not accept that free will and rights exist, then you just go down a different rabbit hole.
Yeah, any time someone tells me free will doesn't exist, I kick him in the shin, then explain that he can't blame me because I don't have free will.

User avatar
Sandy
Posts: 9312
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:03
Location: In the hearts of little children, clogging their arteries.

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 21 Sep 2017, 14:16

Yeah, the argument against free will seems particularly pointless. If there is none, then congratulations, you're a radical Neo-Calvinist and nothing matters because we were programmed to have this argument and all argumentation is therefore pointless because we don't have the ability to choose anything.

At some point, if reality is determined in such a way to hew closely to how free will would look, then you might as well act like it is because you'll never tell if it isn't.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 6534
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Shem » 21 Sep 2017, 18:30

JD wrote:
21 Sep 2017, 13:58
Aresen wrote:
20 Sep 2017, 13:18
You simply cannot have an organized society without an implicit assumption of agency on some level. If you do not accept that free will and rights exist, then you just go down a different rabbit hole.
Yeah, any time someone tells me free will doesn't exist, I kick him in the shin, then explain that he can't blame me because I don't have free will.
When someone does that to me, I punch them in the ear and then kinda shrug awkwardly and say "well, you know."
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 24191
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by thoreau » 21 Sep 2017, 18:55

Officer Krupkre, I'm down on my knees...
"The first rule of Grylliade club is 'Why are we talking about Grylliade club?'"
--Jake

User avatar
Sandy
Posts: 9312
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:03
Location: In the hearts of little children, clogging their arteries.

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 21 Sep 2017, 20:34

Shem wrote:
JD wrote:
21 Sep 2017, 13:58
Aresen wrote:
20 Sep 2017, 13:18
You simply cannot have an organized society without an implicit assumption of agency on some level. If you do not accept that free will and rights exist, then you just go down a different rabbit hole.
Yeah, any time someone tells me free will doesn't exist, I kick him in the shin, then explain that he can't blame me because I don't have free will.
When someone does that to me, I punch them in the ear and then kinda shrug awkwardly and say "well, you know."
That's why I'm always programmed to kick in the balls first.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

User avatar
Sandy
Posts: 9312
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:03
Location: In the hearts of little children, clogging their arteries.

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 24 Sep 2017, 22:52

I'm programmed by the various narratives to the point where the race of the perpetrator surprised me:

http://wjla.com/news/nation-world/churc ... in-antioch
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

User avatar
Andrew
Posts: 5482
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 21:52
Location: Vale of Eternal Fire

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Andrew » 07 Oct 2017, 21:48

While everything in the world causes cancer (according the internet), it's okay because apple cider vinegar is the answer for everything (including curing cancer).
We live in the fucked age. Get used to it. - dhex

holy shit there will never be an end until the sweet release of death (as dictated by the death panels, natch) - lunch

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 12987
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Aresen » 07 Oct 2017, 22:38

Andrew wrote:
07 Oct 2017, 21:48
While everything in the world causes cancer (according the internet), it's okay because apple cider vinegar is the answer for everything (including curing cancer).
I do prefer apple cider to beer.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Most people don't realize Stephen King downplayed the horror that is Maine. - Jennifer

User avatar
the innominate one
Posts: 11112
Joined: 17 May 2011, 16:17
Location: hypertime continuum

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by the innominate one » 08 Oct 2017, 09:39

I sincerely hope Ross Douthat is paying the NYT to publish his columns instead of the converse, because that guy is the dumbest of fucks.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 21471
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Warren » 08 Oct 2017, 10:13

the innominate one wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 09:39
I sincerely hope Ross Douthat is paying the NYT to publish his columns instead of the converse, because that guy is the dumbest of fucks.
You talking about this? I'm not seeing dumbest of fucks there. I'll even go as far as to endorse the following as both true and salient.
But it might just show that a certain kind of powerful liberal creep only gets his comeuppance when he’s weakened or old or in the grave. The awfulness of Ted Kennedy, at Chappaquiddick and after hours in D.C., can be acknowledged only now that he’s no longer a liberal lion in the Senate. The possibility that Bill Clinton might be not just an adulterer but a rapist can be entertained now that he’s no longer protecting abortion from the White House. The sins of Woody Allen … well, I’m sure Hollywood will start ostracizing him any day now.
Women with strollers are legitimately the worst people, and should, like motorcyclists, not be considered people for liability and criminal purposes. - lunchstealer

User avatar
Number 6
Posts: 2755
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:41

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Number 6 » 08 Oct 2017, 14:36

Andrew wrote:
07 Oct 2017, 21:48
While everything in the world causes cancer (according the internet), it's okay because apple cider vinegar is the answer for everything (including curing cancer).
Apple cider vinegar is the answer to the question, "what should I put in the crock pot with my pork butt."
" i discovered you eat dog dicks out of a bowl marked "dog dicks" because you're too stupid to remember where you left your bowl of dog dicks."-dhex, of course.
"Come, let us go forth and not rape together"-Jadagul

User avatar
lunchstealer
Posts: 14452
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:25
Location: The Local Fluff in the Local Bubble

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by lunchstealer » 08 Oct 2017, 16:07

Number 6 wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 14:36
Andrew wrote:
07 Oct 2017, 21:48
While everything in the world causes cancer (according the internet), it's okay because apple cider vinegar is the answer for everything (including curing cancer).
Apple cider vinegar is the answer to the question, "what should I put in the crock pot with my pork butt."
There's a your mom joke lurking in there somewhere.
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"Repeated headdesk is dangerous yo." - JasonL

User avatar
the innominate one
Posts: 11112
Joined: 17 May 2011, 16:17
Location: hypertime continuum

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by the innominate one » 08 Oct 2017, 16:28

Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 10:13
the innominate one wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 09:39
I sincerely hope Ross Douthat is paying the NYT to publish his columns instead of the converse, because that guy is the dumbest of fucks.
You talking about this? I'm not seeing dumbest of fucks there. I'll even go as far as to endorse the following as both true and salient.
But it might just show that a certain kind of powerful liberal creep only gets his comeuppance when he’s weakened or old or in the grave. The awfulness of Ted Kennedy, at Chappaquiddick and after hours in D.C., can be acknowledged only now that he’s no longer a liberal lion in the Senate. The possibility that Bill Clinton might be not just an adulterer but a rapist can be entertained now that he’s no longer protecting abortion from the White House. The sins of Woody Allen … well, I’m sure Hollywood will start ostracizing him any day now.
No, I hadn't seen that. That's kind of stupid, too. People with social capital, of either political party, get their sins whitewashed by their side. Trump cheated on his wives, like Bill Clinton, but in Clinton's case it came to light after he was president. Trump has more credibly been accused of sexual assault, and before the primaries, but he was nominated and elected by the party of family values.

No, I read Douthat's moralizing about Hefner "exploiting" women and watched a clip of a supposedly "intelligent christian" (who turned out to be guess who) winning a debate with Bill Maher. Whether he won is arguable, but not a major accomplishment. Maher is not a deep thinker.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 21471
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Warren » 08 Oct 2017, 16:34

the innominate one wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 16:28
No, I hadn't seen that. That's kind of stupid, too. People with social capital, of either political party, get their sins whitewashed by their side.
He says as much.
the innominate one wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 16:28
No, I read Douthat's moralizing about Hefner "exploiting" women and watched a clip of a supposedly "intelligent christian" (who turned out to be guess who) winning a debate with Bill Maher. Whether he won is arguable, but not a major accomplishment. Maher is not a deep thinker.
Ah. I'll take your word for that. I don't have the slightest inclination to chase either of those down.
Women with strollers are legitimately the worst people, and should, like motorcyclists, not be considered people for liability and criminal purposes. - lunchstealer

User avatar
the innominate one
Posts: 11112
Joined: 17 May 2011, 16:17
Location: hypertime continuum

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by the innominate one » 08 Oct 2017, 16:39

Is Douthat still a devout Catholic? What's his stance on child rape?
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 20770
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Mo » 08 Oct 2017, 20:09

Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 10:13
the innominate one wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 09:39
I sincerely hope Ross Douthat is paying the NYT to publish his columns instead of the converse, because that guy is the dumbest of fucks.
You talking about this? I'm not seeing dumbest of fucks there. I'll even go as far as to endorse the following as both true and salient.
But it might just show that a certain kind of powerful liberal creep only gets his comeuppance when he’s weakened or old or in the grave. The awfulness of Ted Kennedy, at Chappaquiddick and after hours in D.C., can be acknowledged only now that he’s no longer a liberal lion in the Senate. The possibility that Bill Clinton might be not just an adulterer but a rapist can be entertained now that he’s no longer protecting abortion from the White House. The sins of Woody Allen … well, I’m sure Hollywood will start ostracizing him any day now.
How does this apply only to liberals? Bill O'Reilly has been doing it for years. Same with Ailes. Powerful creeps only get their comeuppance when they're weakened or old or in the grave, regardless of affiliation.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Fin Fang Foom
Posts: 8744
Joined: 05 May 2010, 22:39

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 08 Oct 2017, 20:10

the innominate one wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 16:39
Is Douthat still a devout Catholic? What's his stance on child rape?
To me, Ross Douthat will always be the creppy motherfucker who was disgusted by a "chunky Reese Witherspoon" who probably was just trying to give him it sex.
Saudi Arabia is doing something potentially harmful to America? Oh, hell. Does that mean we're going to invade Iraq again? - Jennifer

User avatar
Fin Fang Foom
Posts: 8744
Joined: 05 May 2010, 22:39

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 08 Oct 2017, 20:13

Mo wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 20:09
Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 10:13
the innominate one wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 09:39
I sincerely hope Ross Douthat is paying the NYT to publish his columns instead of the converse, because that guy is the dumbest of fucks.
You talking about this? I'm not seeing dumbest of fucks there. I'll even go as far as to endorse the following as both true and salient.
But it might just show that a certain kind of powerful liberal creep only gets his comeuppance when he’s weakened or old or in the grave. The awfulness of Ted Kennedy, at Chappaquiddick and after hours in D.C., can be acknowledged only now that he’s no longer a liberal lion in the Senate. The possibility that Bill Clinton might be not just an adulterer but a rapist can be entertained now that he’s no longer protecting abortion from the White House. The sins of Woody Allen … well, I’m sure Hollywood will start ostracizing him any day now.
How does this apply only to liberals? Bill O'Reilly has been doing it for years. Same with Ailes. Powerful creeps only get their comeuppance when they're weakened or old or in the grave, regardless of affiliation.
Weinstein was out in less than a week after this round. Pointing out that everyone did worse in the past only matters if you are far in the lead now. Also, of course, Weinstein isn't, you know, like the President.
Saudi Arabia is doing something potentially harmful to America? Oh, hell. Does that mean we're going to invade Iraq again? - Jennifer

User avatar
dbcooper
Posts: 17502
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:40

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by dbcooper » 08 Oct 2017, 20:14

Lets not forget Dennis Hastert.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 21471
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Warren » 08 Oct 2017, 20:18

Mo wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 20:09
How does this apply only to liberals? Bill O'Reilly has been doing it for years.
It doesn't. He calls out O'Reilly farther down.
Women with strollers are legitimately the worst people, and should, like motorcyclists, not be considered people for liability and criminal purposes. - lunchstealer

User avatar
Fin Fang Foom
Posts: 8744
Joined: 05 May 2010, 22:39

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 08 Oct 2017, 20:22

We should start a campaign to get millions to write into the Times to say, "I guess Douthat has a point.* Now please never publish him again."

* He doesn't.
Saudi Arabia is doing something potentially harmful to America? Oh, hell. Does that mean we're going to invade Iraq again? - Jennifer

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 20770
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Mo » 08 Oct 2017, 20:34

Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 20:18
Mo wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 20:09
How does this apply only to liberals? Bill O'Reilly has been doing it for years.
It doesn't. He calls out O'Reilly farther down.
So then he contradicts himself in his own column? Even better.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 7367
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by nicole » 09 Oct 2017, 07:38

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 20:10
the innominate one wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 16:39
Is Douthat still a devout Catholic? What's his stance on child rape?
To me, Ross Douthat will always be the creppy motherfucker who was disgusted by a "chunky Reese Witherspoon" who probably was just trying to give him it sex.
Creepy? More like losery. Love 2 fat-shame girls who were nice to me when I was a hopelessly prudish virgin!
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"Privilege is having large phones fit into the garments that society expects you to wear." -Dangerman

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests