Observations of the Random sort

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Sandy
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 27 Dec 2017, 20:12

I could go the rest of my life without seeing another "I used to think everything was fine but then I realized all the presidents shared my skin color and genitalia and therefore somehow I benefitted even though the only things I can point to is not getting screwed as hard as a black male" piece.

High powered Jews in Hollywood does not mean Joe Schlomo on the corner is a media mogul. Trump being white does not mean I get to order airstrikes on Muslim wedding parties. Obama being President did not mean that black people suddenly got a fair shake from the justice system. Also, black people being treated like shit by the justice system doesn't actually benefit me in any way. I'd be even better off if they weren't harassed, because I'd live in a society with more productive members not spending their time fighting bogus charges.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by thoreau » 27 Dec 2017, 20:18

I wish people would talk about disadvantage rather than privilege.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Mo » 27 Dec 2017, 20:23

I think Boot's column is more nuanced than that. For one, he doesn't mind bombing Afghan weddings. It's basically how recently stuff has been more apparent. For example, police brutality and targeting of minorities. And he's also careful to note that skin color is not a magical talisman. Things like #MeToo and Charlottesville have made sexism and racism seem far more pervasive than even I thought they were. For me personally, I thought things were less widespread than they were, though still not as widespread as advertised. I actually thought he took a pretty measured look without any crazy zeal of the convert.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Dangerman » 27 Dec 2017, 20:25

Aresen wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 10:39
No thanks. You can keep your thugs at home.
ABOARD A P-3 ORION, over the Pacific Ocean — The Department of Homeland Security is increasingly going global.

An estimated 2,000 Homeland Security employees — from Immigration and Customs Enforcement special agents to Transportation Security Administration officials — now are deployed to more than 70 countries around the world.
You folks need a 3rd Amendment.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Jennifer » 27 Dec 2017, 20:49

Sandy wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 20:12
black people being treated like shit by the justice system doesn't actually benefit me in any way.
Of course not, but the usual complaint is more along the lines of "white people benefit in the sense that we're generally not being treated as shabbily as black people."

I still like the idea which IIRC Eric once suggested -- the concept currently labeled "privilege" (white privilege, male privilege, etc.) should more accurately be called "insulation": an insulated house doesn't guarantee you won't be bothered by the outside weather, but the more insulation you have, the less likely you are to be bothered by it.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 27 Dec 2017, 22:27

Jennifer wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 20:49
Of course not, but the usual complaint is more along the lines of "white people benefit in the sense that we're generally not being treated as shabbily as black people."
That's just such a weird version of "benefit," though. Like you need to recognize your not-being-beaten privilege, and how you benefit from not being in a relationship in which you receive routine beatings. And to make things just, you should work to give up your privilege. So, like, maybe hit yourself once a day to make it even.

If tomorrow we decide everyone who is blonde should get slapped in the face once a day, you "benefit" by having red hair. So your life is exactly the same, but someone else's gets worse. I wonder how many benefits we could bestow that way...
Congratulations black people! We may be harassing you in the streets and incarcerating you at a disproportionate rate while fining you into felony status, but you now "benefit" because we bomb muslims! What a benefit! Feel guilty and work to undo your not-being-bombed privilege. You are now beneficiaries of the heterocapatilistcisnormativepatriarchy!
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by thoreau » 27 Dec 2017, 22:59

To the extent that Boot frames these things in terms of privilege rather than disadvantage he is sadly unremarkable among people who recognize these problems. To the extent that he recognizes the existence of these problems he is quite remarkable for a neocon
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Mo » 27 Dec 2017, 23:10

Sandy wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 22:27
If tomorrow we decide everyone who is blonde should get slapped in the face once a day, you "benefit" by having red hair. So your life is exactly the same, but someone else's gets worse. I wonder how many benefits we could bestow that way...
Congratulations black people! We may be harassing you in the streets and incarcerating you at a disproportionate rate while fining you into felony status, but you now "benefit" because we bomb muslims! What a benefit! Feel guilty and work to undo your not-being-bombed privilege. You are now beneficiaries of the heterocapatilistcisnormativepatriarchy!
Image

His whole framing is that it sucks that people have to deal with this shit and they shouldn't have to, not that white men need to also be concerned about being accused of shoplifting when they bring gifts for their friends so that they know what it's like to be a black woman. Yeah, the privilege word sucks for describing the phenomenon, but it's one that is commonly understood to describe it. The solutions proffered by all but wierdo extremists is that no one else should have to deal with it, not that more people should deal with it. BLM were among the earliest groups calling attention to the Shaver murder, it's not like they were saying, "Yeah, now white people get shot by the police in cold blood too."
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Jennifer » 27 Dec 2017, 23:13

Sandy wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 22:27
Jennifer wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 20:49
Of course not, but the usual complaint is more along the lines of "white people benefit in the sense that we're generally not being treated as shabbily as black people."
That's just such a weird version of "benefit," though. Like you need to recognize your not-being-beaten privilege, and how you benefit from not being in a relationship in which you receive routine beatings.
From the perspective of people who lack that privilege (or "insulation," as I prefer), who want to fix what's wrong with the system, it actually IS necessary for others to realize the problem, yes. Such as: before there's any chance of fixing the problem with police brutality, then the white majority which (for the most part, though not always) is largely insulated from it needs to recognize "Yeah, the way I have it is NOT how others do." (I for one haven't had problems with abusive police, even during those times I've been pulled over, but I recognize that my default is NOT everybody's.) Before the sex-harassment problems women complain about can be fixed, men need to recognize "Yeah, a lot of women really do face certain problems I've never had to deal with." Which is basically what Boot is getting at in his piece-- he never had certain problems, and thus was prone to dismiss complaints from people saying they did, until certain recent events and revelations led him to take a different view of the matter.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by JasonL » 27 Dec 2017, 23:17

I only object when people sneak in a zero sum allocation logic through the back door of privilege such that someone owes someone else. That gets sticky.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Aresen » 27 Dec 2017, 23:22

Sandy wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 20:12
Also, black people being treated like shit by the justice system doesn't actually benefit me in any way. I'd be even better off if they weren't harassed, because I'd live in a society with more productive members not spending their time fighting bogus charges.
I think that the key question is "Cui bono?" By and large, ordinary white people do not benefit from the WOD, police militarization, and other policies that make life disproportionately worse for blacks and other minorities. (Although their fears and prejudices are frequently appealed to in order to get them to support such policies.) LEOs, their suppliers, prison guards, security companies, private prison operators and, most of all, politicians who endorse those policies, are the ones who benefit most. To update an old Anti-Vietnam War slogan "The War on Drugs is Healthy for the State."
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Jennifer » 27 Dec 2017, 23:23

Sandy wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 22:27

If tomorrow we decide everyone who is blonde should get slapped in the face once a day, you "benefit" by having red hair. So your life is exactly the same, but someone else's gets worse. I wonder how many benefits we could bestow that way...
Congratulations black people! We may be harassing you in the streets and incarcerating you at a disproportionate rate while fining you into felony status, but you now "benefit" because we bomb muslims! What a benefit! Feel guilty and work to undo your not-being-bombed privilege. You are now beneficiaries of the heterocapatilistcisnormativepatriarchy!
Again, it's not that white people or men (or redheads in your example) derive "benefits" from others being mistreated, it's that those others must deal with mistreatment which is often dismissed or ignored by those who tend not to suffer it.

With the women complaining about sexual harassment and worse at work, nobody's calling for men to be harassed in equal quantities, but for women to not have to deal with harassment at work anymore. It's not an attack on men, anymore than complaining about the treatment of black Americans is an attack on white people.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by thoreau » 28 Dec 2017, 00:12

Privilege is an unfortunate term for a real thing. If I could I'd change the term to either "disadvantage" or "unfair double standard", depending on the context. But I think we're stuck with the term. I am, however, optimistic that as cell phones shed light on police abuse and people come forward to talk about sexual harassment, we might reduce the incidence of [problem that needs some name other than privilege].
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Aresen » 28 Dec 2017, 00:31

thoreau wrote:
28 Dec 2017, 00:12
Privilege is an unfortunate term for a real thing. If I could I'd change the term to either "disadvantage" or "unfair double standard", depending on the context. But I think we're stuck with the term. I am, however, optimistic that as cell phones shed light on police abuse and people come forward to talk about sexual harassment, we might reduce the incidence of [problem that needs some name other than privilege].
I propose we name it in honor of the current US Attorney General: Sessionism. (Not to be confused with secessionism.)
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Eric the .5b » 28 Dec 2017, 05:41

Aresen wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 23:22
I think that the key question is "Cui bono?" By and large, ordinary white people do not benefit from the WOD, police militarization, and other policies that make life disproportionately worse for blacks and other minorities.
Similarly, it is wrong to speak of living in the US as advantageous compared to living in Venezuela or North Korea. The suffering of those people does not enhance the American standard of living...
thoreau wrote:
28 Dec 2017, 00:12
Privilege is an unfortunate term for a real thing. If I could I'd change the term to either "disadvantage" or "unfair double standard", depending on the context. But I think we're stuck with the term. I am, however, optimistic that as cell phones shed light on police abuse and people come forward to talk about sexual harassment, we might reduce the incidence of [problem that needs some name other than privilege].
But cell phones will not save us from the mind-breaking word "privilege", the use of which is far, far worse than any and all problems it describes.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Mo » 28 Dec 2017, 08:33

Aresen wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 23:22
I think that the key question is "Cui bono?" By and large, ordinary white people do not benefit from the WOD, police militarization, and other policies that make life disproportionately worse for blacks and other minorities. (Although their fears and prejudices are frequently appealed to in order to get them to support such policies.) LEOs, their suppliers, prison guards, security companies, private prison operators and, most of all, politicians who endorse those policies, are the ones who benefit most. To update an old Anti-Vietnam War slogan "The War on Drugs is Healthy for the State."
However, many ordinary whites do demand things like the WOD (though decreasingly so), police militarization, and other policies that make life disproportionately worse for blacks and other minorities. The supply side wouldn't be doing what they're doing and expanding if there wasn't demand for it.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Mo » 28 Dec 2017, 08:51

Look at the wave of death and destruction wrought by the end of stop and frisk.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/27/nyre ... -2017.html
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 28 Dec 2017, 19:39

Mo wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 23:10
His whole framing is that it sucks that people have to deal with this shit and they shouldn't have to, not that white men need to also be concerned about being accused of shoplifting when they bring gifts for their friends so that they know what it's like to be a black woman. Yeah, the privilege word sucks for describing the phenomenon, but it's one that is commonly understood to describe it. The solutions proffered by all but wierdo extremists is that no one else should have to deal with it, not that more people should deal with it. BLM were among the earliest groups calling attention to the Shaver murder, it's not like they were saying, "Yeah, now white people get shot by the police in cold blood too."
The weirdo extremists are pretty prominent, and all the language is about giving up privilege. I assume you don't go to any conferences or read anything about tech inclusion or you would have encountered this by now in very mainstream circumstances.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 28 Dec 2017, 19:41

Mo wrote:
28 Dec 2017, 08:33
However, many ordinary whites do demand things like the WOD (though decreasingly so), police militarization, and other policies that make life disproportionately worse for blacks and other minorities. The supply side wouldn't be doing what they're doing and expanding if there wasn't demand for it.
Ahem: black people were also heavily part of this demand. "There is a problem; GOVERNMENT DO SOMETHING" is not a uniquely white phenomenon.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 28 Dec 2017, 19:42

Jennifer wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 23:23
Sandy wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 22:27

If tomorrow we decide everyone who is blonde should get slapped in the face once a day, you "benefit" by having red hair. So your life is exactly the same, but someone else's gets worse. I wonder how many benefits we could bestow that way...
Congratulations black people! We may be harassing you in the streets and incarcerating you at a disproportionate rate while fining you into felony status, but you now "benefit" because we bomb muslims! What a benefit! Feel guilty and work to undo your not-being-bombed privilege. You are now beneficiaries of the heterocapatilistcisnormativepatriarchy!
Again, it's not that white people or men (or redheads in your example) derive "benefits" from others being mistreated, it's that those others must deal with mistreatment which is often dismissed or ignored by those who tend not to suffer it.

With the women complaining about sexual harassment and worse at work, nobody's calling for men to be harassed in equal quantities, but for women to not have to deal with harassment at work anymore. It's not an attack on men, anymore than complaining about the treatment of black Americans is an attack on white people.
I'm aware white people don't benefit, but when you say "benefit" from oppression, you're indicating that you do not. Boot does that very thing at the beginning of his article.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Jennifer » 28 Dec 2017, 20:03

Sandy wrote:
28 Dec 2017, 19:42
Jennifer wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 23:23
Sandy wrote:
27 Dec 2017, 22:27

If tomorrow we decide everyone who is blonde should get slapped in the face once a day, you "benefit" by having red hair. So your life is exactly the same, but someone else's gets worse. I wonder how many benefits we could bestow that way...
Congratulations black people! We may be harassing you in the streets and incarcerating you at a disproportionate rate while fining you into felony status, but you now "benefit" because we bomb muslims! What a benefit! Feel guilty and work to undo your not-being-bombed privilege. You are now beneficiaries of the heterocapatilistcisnormativepatriarchy!
Again, it's not that white people or men (or redheads in your example) derive "benefits" from others being mistreated, it's that those others must deal with mistreatment which is often dismissed or ignored by those who tend not to suffer it.

With the women complaining about sexual harassment and worse at work, nobody's calling for men to be harassed in equal quantities, but for women to not have to deal with harassment at work anymore. It's not an attack on men, anymore than complaining about the treatment of black Americans is an attack on white people.
I'm aware white people don't benefit, but when you say "benefit" from oppression, you're indicating that you do not. Boot does that very thing at the beginning of his article.
Huh? His article begins like this:
In college — this was in the late 1980s and early 1990s at the University of California, Berkeley — I used to be one of those smart-alecky young conservatives who would scoff at the notion of “white male privilege” and claim that anyone propagating such concepts was guilty of “political correctness.” As a Jewish refugee from the Soviet Union, I felt it was ridiculous to expect me to atone for the sins of slavery and segregation, to say nothing of the household drudgery and workplace discrimination suffered by women. I wasn’t racist or sexist. (Or so I thought.) I hadn’t discriminated against anyone. (Or so I thought.) My ancestors were not slave owners or lynchers; they were more likely victims of the pogroms.

I saw America as a land of opportunity, not a bastion of racism or sexism. I didn’t even think that I was a “white” person — the catchall category that has been extended to include everyone from a Mayflower descendant to a recently arrived illegal immigrant from Ireland. I was a newcomer to America who was eager to assimilate into this wondrous new society, and I saw its many merits while blinding myself to its dark side.

Well, live and learn. A quarter century is enough time to examine deeply held shibboleths and to see if they comport with reality. In my case, I have concluded that my beliefs were based more on faith than on a critical examination of the evidence. In the last few years, in particular, it has become impossible for me to deny the reality of discrimination, harassment, even violence that people of color and women continue to experience in modern-day America from a power structure that remains for the most part in the hands of straight, white males. People like me, in other words. Whether I realize it or not, I have benefitted from my skin color and my gender — and those of a different gender or sexuality or skin color have suffered because of it.
In context, it's clear he's saying he realized that he has "benefited" in the sense that even as a Russian-Jewish immigrant -- his sex and skin color meant he did not have to deal with a lot of shit which women and minorities do have to deal with.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 28 Dec 2017, 20:23

"and those of a different gender or sexuality or skin color have suffered because of [my skin color and gender]."

Does calling out the antecedent help elucidate my objection? It's just a weird way to put it. One that's sadly completely common, but it's still weird.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Eric the .5b » 28 Dec 2017, 20:26

There should be a term for the phenomenon where groups of people with a delusion find each other online and mutually reinforce that delusion—"targeted individuals", shadow people "witnesses", Morgellons "sufferers", etc.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Jennifer » 28 Dec 2017, 20:40

Sandy wrote:
28 Dec 2017, 20:23
"and those of a different gender or sexuality or skin color have suffered because of [my skin color and gender]."
Yes, a lot of Americans who are something other than white and male suffer precisely because they are not white and male. Max Boot says he dismissed such complaints for years, but has recently come to the realization that there really i something to it after all. Why does this bother you?
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 28 Dec 2017, 20:59

Jennifer wrote:
28 Dec 2017, 20:40
Sandy wrote:
28 Dec 2017, 20:23
"and those of a different gender or sexuality or skin color have suffered because of [my skin color and gender]."
Yes, a lot of Americans who are something other than white and male suffer precisely because they are not white and male. Max Boot says he dismissed such complaints for years, but has recently come to the realization that there really i something to it after all. Why does this bother you?
Because his skin color isn't causing it. It may be insulating him from it, but it has fuck all to do with their maltreatment at the hands of others.

The language of benefit and guilt-by-association is weird and seems to be the product of warped zero-sum thinking about the subject. It's not like whites will be worse off if the justice system stops persecuting black men in the inner city. We'd actually benefit, because a whole lot of the economy that goes to making peoples' lives actively worse will be redirected back to normal activity, and then the black men would actually be contributing value instead of being forcibly stopped from doing it.

The rest of his argument doesn't make that language not weird in the weird way lots of social justice types are weird.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

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