Observations of the Random sort

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JD
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by JD » 29 Nov 2017, 10:50

Mo wrote:
29 Nov 2017, 10:34
It's exploitable remotely.

https://www.csoonline.com/article/32388 ... -help.html
Ah, well, that's even worse then.
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nicole
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by nicole » 29 Nov 2017, 12:41

I mean...on what planet could you have read that NYT profile and not have realized the guy was a Nazi? I don't fucking get this thread at all. IT DESCRIBED HOW INTO HITLER HE WAS.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by dhex » 30 Nov 2017, 07:57

they're normalizing nazism by not saying NAZIS ARE BAD every third sentence in case people forget.

quite frankly these people treat neonazism/wn like rick santorum speaks of the gays - it's so enticing and juicy that any mention of it that isn't morally righteous and complete is in danger of infecting otherwise good, clear-hearted people.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by nicole » 30 Nov 2017, 08:00

It takes me back to something I read about the recent Laurier TA thing, where someone said “this is like if she showed speeches by Hitler without saying Nazism is wrong!” and I was like...so we have to constantly say that?
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by dhex » 30 Nov 2017, 08:06

yes apparently we do because fuck us that's why?

i dunno man. 500 dipshits kill one woman with a car and all i can think is imagine how 9/11-ish things would get if oklahoma city happened now.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Highway » 30 Nov 2017, 08:42

When everything is virtue signalling, if you're not signalling the right virtue, then you're signalling the wrong one.
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dhex
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by dhex » 30 Nov 2017, 09:06

i don't even think it's virtue signalling. it's the manifestation of an other that is immune to calvinism.

that their other is actually animated by insane shit like birthers doesn't help, mind you. but the santorum-esque reasoning around "normalizing" nazism through an admittedly weak profile is actually unhinged.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by nicole » 30 Nov 2017, 09:16

I don't know, it also seems of a piece with complaints about how you need to have diverse characters in your fiction, but if anything bad happens to them, even if that would be realistic, that's wrong. Everything needs to be a perfect morality tale. Bad things happen to bad people, good things happen to good people, and you note this explicitly all the time.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 30 Nov 2017, 10:42

dhex wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 09:06
i don't even think it's virtue signalling. it's the manifestation of an other that is immune to calvinism.
It is basically Puritanism, though.

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JD
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by JD » 30 Nov 2017, 10:57

dhex wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 07:57
they're normalizing nazism by not saying NAZIS ARE BAD every third sentence in case people forget.
Wasn't there one comment that said something like "We know that Nazis are just people too, but what people need to be reminded of is that their victims were people too"? My reaction to that was basically "buh? do non-nazi people actually tend to forget that? because it seems both obvious and like something we hear a lot." It just seems like a lot of people have a toddler-level view of morality, where every time you mention someone who was bad you have to say "____, WHO WAS VERY BAD", and every time you mention something good you have to say "______, WHO WAS VERY GOOD."
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by JasonL » 30 Nov 2017, 11:14

The disparity between measured elements of the economy and the general tone in public discourse continues to increase from an already shocking gap in 2016. I'm not at all certain how this will resolve itself. We are overdue for a correction but we are still seeing wages and earnings growth, we are not over leveraged as an economy relative to other times in history, we have a lot of government debt but plenty of ability to service it, we have relatively low taxation, low and decreasing unemployment, low but not alarming low inflation, P/E is high for the S&P so maybe that's a thing. The disconnect is jarring.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by nicole » 30 Nov 2017, 11:22

JD wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 10:57
dhex wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 07:57
they're normalizing nazism by not saying NAZIS ARE BAD every third sentence in case people forget.
Wasn't there one comment that said something like "We know that Nazis are just people too, but what people need to be reminded of is that their victims were people too"? My reaction to that was basically "buh? do non-nazi people actually tend to forget that? because it seems both obvious and like something we hear a lot." It just seems like a lot of people have a toddler-level view of morality, where every time you mention someone who was bad you have to say "____, WHO WAS VERY BAD", and every time you mention something good you have to say "______, WHO WAS VERY GOOD."
yeah
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by thoreau » 30 Nov 2017, 11:47

Sandy wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 10:42
dhex wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 09:06
i don't even think it's virtue signalling. it's the manifestation of an other that is immune to calvinism.
It is basically Puritanism, though.

Intersectional social justice is the WASPiest ideology ever.
In their stated beliefs I actually think they're more like old-school Quakers, who, from what I've read, were obsessed with avoiding any sort of trade, practice, or product that was tained with any association with oppressive activities. (To the extent that it amounted to boycotts of things associated with slavery, good for them.) In practice, though, intersectional social justice shares the Puritan obsession with purifying the community, casting out the wicked, and taking those who are not beyond redemption and trying to force them into more virtuous ways of acting.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Sandy » 30 Nov 2017, 12:24

thoreau wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 11:47
Sandy wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 10:42
dhex wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 09:06
i don't even think it's virtue signalling. it's the manifestation of an other that is immune to calvinism.
It is basically Puritanism, though.

Intersectional social justice is the WASPiest ideology ever.
In their stated beliefs I actually think they're more like old-school Quakers, who, from what I've read, were obsessed with avoiding any sort of trade, practice, or product that was tained with any association with oppressive activities. (To the extent that it amounted to boycotts of things associated with slavery, good for them.) In practice, though, intersectional social justice shares the Puritan obsession with purifying the community, casting out the wicked, and taking those who are not beyond redemption and trying to force them into more virtuous ways of acting.
A disconnect between stated beliefs and private action was also a hallmark of Puritanism, IIRC.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Dangerman » 30 Nov 2017, 12:49

So I'm actually reading Albion's Seed, and it seems that Puritanism is more about stated beliefs that cannot ever be maintained, and the expectation that you are a horrific sinner. If you aren't self-flagelating, you are suspect because you aren't recognizing your own sins. Of course people are hypocrites, because the standards are impossible, and you can't be part of the community unless you agree that you will be held to these standards, and also that the standards are good and true.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by thoreau » 30 Nov 2017, 12:58

Dangerman wrote:So I'm actually reading Albion's Seed, and it seems that Puritanism is more about stated beliefs that cannot ever be maintained, and the expectation that you are a horrific sinner. If you aren't self-flagelating, you are suspect because you aren't recognizing your own sins. Of course people are hypocrites, because the standards are impossible, and you can't be part of the community unless you agree that you will be held to these standards, and also that the standards are good and true.
It's been a while since I read that book, but, yeah, sounds familiar. Really, the rhetoric around implicit bias is not so different from the Puritan need for constant self flagellation.

When do we start burning witches?
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Eric the .5b » 30 Nov 2017, 16:17

dhex wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 08:06
yes apparently we do because fuck us that's why?

i dunno man. 500 dipshits kill one woman with a car and all i can think is imagine how 9/11-ish things would get if oklahoma city happened now.
Maybe after an election. Not with Team Red in power.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Shem » 30 Nov 2017, 16:40

Dangerman wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 12:49
So I'm actually reading Albion's Seed, and it seems that Puritanism is more about stated beliefs that cannot ever be maintained, and the expectation that you are a horrific sinner. If you aren't self-flagelating, you are suspect because you aren't recognizing your own sins. Of course people are hypocrites, because the standards are impossible, and you can't be part of the community unless you agree that you will be held to these standards, and also that the standards are good and true.
You're missing predestination, which is a really important part of understanding the Puritan ethos. The standard isn't impossible to meet so much as it's that you were born already a failure. God, in his mercy, cuts some people slack and let's them into heaven anyway, but he's already decided who that is, and you're on the list, or you're not. The people who are on the list are, presumably, the ones who follow the rules in the face of failure, so everybody follows along, either because they don't want to raise suspicion or because they believe they're already part of the Elect and it's what is expected of them as such. Roger Williams didn't found Rhode Island because he thought religious toleration was an especially beneficial or meaningful end; he did it because he believed that if predestination is true (which he believed, for most of his life at least) then there's really no point in hectoring people who will wind up in Hell no matter what you say or do. The idea that you've lost before the game even starts even if you are successful in obeying every rule (which is theoretically possible, at least if one removes childhood from consideration, which, to be fair, the Puritans believed one should not) is the bedrock of Puritan belief.

And, it is more than a little similar to the idea that everyone is made racist through being raised in a racist system to racist expectations, meaning the connection can still be argued. Not least of all because both would argue that to speak of obedience or hypocrisy is to miss the point entirely. Actions are just an outward signifier of internal status.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by dbcooper » 30 Nov 2017, 20:16



Obama's election turned the New Yorker into unmitigated garbage.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Aresen » 30 Nov 2017, 22:27

dbcooper wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 20:16
Obama's election turned the New Yorker into unmitigated garbage.
Before that it was mitigated garbage.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Jadagul » 30 Nov 2017, 22:52

Today I learned that the word "onion" is actually derived from the word "union".

I felt like the Grylliade Old Guard would appreciate this fact.

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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by thoreau » 01 Dec 2017, 01:37

Shem wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 16:40
Dangerman wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 12:49
So I'm actually reading Albion's Seed, and it seems that Puritanism is more about stated beliefs that cannot ever be maintained, and the expectation that you are a horrific sinner. If you aren't self-flagelating, you are suspect because you aren't recognizing your own sins. Of course people are hypocrites, because the standards are impossible, and you can't be part of the community unless you agree that you will be held to these standards, and also that the standards are good and true.
You're missing predestination, which is a really important part of understanding the Puritan ethos. The standard isn't impossible to meet so much as it's that you were born already a failure. God, in his mercy, cuts some people slack and let's them into heaven anyway, but he's already decided who that is, and you're on the list, or you're not. The people who are on the list are, presumably, the ones who follow the rules in the face of failure, so everybody follows along, either because they don't want to raise suspicion or because they believe they're already part of the Elect and it's what is expected of them as such. Roger Williams didn't found Rhode Island because he thought religious toleration was an especially beneficial or meaningful end; he did it because he believed that if predestination is true (which he believed, for most of his life at least) then there's really no point in hectoring people who will wind up in Hell no matter what you say or do. The idea that you've lost before the game even starts even if you are successful in obeying every rule (which is theoretically possible, at least if one removes childhood from consideration, which, to be fair, the Puritans believed one should not) is the bedrock of Puritan belief.

And, it is more than a little similar to the idea that everyone is made racist through being raised in a racist system to racist expectations, meaning the connection can still be argued. Not least of all because both would argue that to speak of obedience or hypocrisy is to miss the point entirely. Actions are just an outward signifier of internal status.
Did the Puritans try to justify their displays of righteousness in terms of the well-being of the weak, the way that many social justice types do? Even if they're spending more time arguing over who is enjoy the right entertainment for the right reason (rather than, you know, trying to make tangible improvements in other people's lives) they justify it on the grounds that they're (supposedly) sparing somebody else pain and suffering by not consuming the wrong entertainment for the wrong reason. (Or whatever.) Did Puritans have similar justifications? Or did they justify it as obedience to a distant God rather than support of individuals in their communities?

I think the Quaker emphasis on not supporting wickedness via commerce was more admirable, and more meaningful. Say what you will about the people who only buy their organic quinoa from the local Womyn's Coop, at least they're putting money into the pocket of whomever they're trying to help, rather than trying to signal virtue by pledging to not see Black Panther on opening weekend.
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by lunchstealer » 01 Dec 2017, 04:12

Jadagul wrote:Today I learned that the word "onion" is actually derived from the word "union".

I felt like the Grylliade Old Guard would appreciate this fact.
Yay us!
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Eric the .5b » 01 Dec 2017, 05:51

Jadagul wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 22:52
Today I learned that the word "onion" is actually derived from the word "union".

I felt like the Grylliade Old Guard would appreciate this fact.
I do. :)
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Re: Observations of the Random sort

Post by Kolohe » 01 Dec 2017, 09:01

dbcooper wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 20:16


Obama's election turned the New Yorker into unmitigated garbage.
Borowitz has been working for the New Yorker since 1998, per wiki.
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