We can win the war in Vietnam!

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Mo
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Mo » 12 May 2015, 08:50

But we really, really needed to use torture to find OBL.
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thoreau
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by thoreau » 20 May 2015, 01:19

FWIW, Phil Giraldi at TAC considers Hersh's report plausible:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... en-killed/

I guess my biggest problem with the story is the idea that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia both wanted OBL dead to avoid certain embarrassing things getting spilled in an interrogation, but sat on the secret of his location for 5 years rather than just getting on with the business of fabricating a cover story, shooting the bastard, and handing over his corpse. I don't doubt that both governments are full of snakes looking for advantages, but it seems strange that they'd leave him breathing for so long if it would be inconvenient for word to get out that he's alive for the taking.

I can buy that the raid happened with the cooperation of somebody or other in Pakistan. It seems strange that all those shootings and explosions wouldn't attract the attention of emergency services or whoever else in a populated neighborhood near some elements of Pakistan's security establishment. And it's not like the US doesn't cultivate people inside the Pakistani security establishment. That doesn't necessarily imply anything about how high the knowledge did or didn't go, or what the people providing cooperation did or didn't know, but I can believe that when the US government sends people deep into Pakistan they have people on the inside whose cooperation they can rely on (for one reason or another).
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by nicole » 13 Aug 2015, 12:01

n+1 has a really good editorial on Seymour Hersh and the bin Laden raid story: https://nplusonemag.com/issue-23/the-in ... ut-stupid/
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Andrew » 13 Aug 2015, 12:13

nicole wrote:n+1 has a really good editorial on Seymour Hersh and the bin Laden raid story: https://nplusonemag.com/issue-23/the-in ... ut-stupid/
Good find.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Hugh Akston » 13 Aug 2015, 13:18

Agreed, that was excellent.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Aresen » 13 Aug 2015, 13:27

nicole wrote:n+1 has a really good editorial on Seymour Hersh and the bin Laden raid story: https://nplusonemag.com/issue-23/the-in ... ut-stupid/
I admit I found the Administration's narrative of the raid and lead up to it persuasive (and I am still unconvinced about the Hersh Counter-narrative.) My only initial doubt was "How the fuck did OBL find a safe house so near a major Pakistani military establishment?" (Although that could have been a "Purloined Letter" move.)

TBS, what I find amusing is the Team Blue insistance that the Administration narrative is unimpeachable, except for a few minor details. If the raid had happened in a McCain administration, Seymour Hersh would have been lionized by Team Blue for his 'expose', which would have been treated as gospel.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by thoreau » 13 Aug 2015, 13:42

I wouldn't bet my life savings on the specifics of Hersh's report, but it is beyond belief that Bin Laden got that safehouse without somebody or other in Pakistan helping him. It is plausible that he was kept by somebody or other as a bargaining chip, and likely that one of them decided to help the US. Indeed, giving the President of the United States a high profile victory is one way of cashing in that chip. But the specifics of how the operation was planned and carried out? Who knows?
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Hugh Akston » 13 Aug 2015, 13:48

I think the broader point is less that the Hirsh counter-narrative is the real deal and more that the Obama Administration's account is yet another morass of inconsistencies and fabrications in its ongoing efforts to soft-peddle and dissemble the War on Terror.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by tr0g » 13 Aug 2015, 14:16

Hugh Akston wrote:I think the broader point is less that the Hirsh counter-narrative is the real deal and more that the Obama Administration's account is yet another morass of inconsistencies and fabrications in its ongoing efforts to soft-peddle and dissemble the War on Terror.
Agreed. Hersh may not have the exact right of it, but the admin's spin is bullshit. And I wholeheartedly concur that somebody in the ISI knew exactly where bin Laden was the whole time he was in Abottabad.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Dangerman » 13 Aug 2015, 14:23

But the Vox reaction looked measured in comparison with that of Slate, which published five anti-Hersh pieces in the space of thirty-six hours. The spree began on May 11: “Seymour Hersh’s Version of the Bin Laden Raid Is Not Only Illogical. It’s Not New” (3:01 PM), “The Last Time Seymour Hersh’s Reporting Raised Doubts” (6:55 PM), and “Did Pakistani Intelligence Turn Seymour Hersh into Its Dupe?” (7:55 PM). Then Slate went to bed so that it could set an early alarm for May 12. “What InfoWars Conspiracy Theories and Hersh’s Bin Laden Story Have in Common” appeared at 8:29 AM, and “A Crank Theory of Seymour Hersh” followed at 11:45 AM.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Aresen » 09 Sep 2015, 19:38

Moved to the other clusterfuck.

(I knew we had one for it, I just couldn't remember where it was. Thanks, Hugh)
Last edited by Aresen on 09 Sep 2015, 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 Sep 2015, 19:42

This is the Afghanistan thread. You want the next clusterfuck over.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Hugh Akston » 30 Sep 2015, 13:32

US Special Forces fought with Afghanis to try and retake the city of Kunduz from the Taliban.
Special forces from the U.S.-led military coalition in Afghanistan battled insurgents on Wednesday near the northern city of Kunduz that was captured by the Taliban this week, a coalition spokesman and Afghan official said.

It was the first report of on-the-ground clashes between Taliban militants and foreign troops supporting their Afghan allies during three days of sometimes heavy fighting for control of the strategic city of 300,000.

Kunduz is the first provincial capital to fall to the Taliban since the hardline Islamist movement was toppled from power in 2001.
Someone remind me--is Afghanistan one of those wars that Obama won and heroically brought the troops home from despite the continued fighting and ongoing presence of US troops? Or was that just Iraq?
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Kwix » 30 Sep 2015, 14:27

Yeah, it's one of his "Mission Accomplished but delayed" spots:
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/u ... 015-116359

I post only because I had to look it up as well. I swear we were "Out Bitchez" from both. Guess I was wrong.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Hugh Akston » 03 Oct 2015, 15:45

At least 19 killed in US airstrike on Afghani hospital.
The U.S. military said it conducted an air strike on Saturday near a hospital run by Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) in the northern city of Kunduz that killed 19 staff and patients, including three children, the medical aid group said.

The U.S. military said it had launched a strike during battles with the Taliban that "may have resulted in collateral damage to a nearby medical facility" but said details were still not clear and promised an investigation.
The medical charity said its staff phoned military officials at NATO in Kabul and Washington during the morning attack, but bombs continued to rain down for nearly an hour.
MSF said it had given the location of the hospital to both Afghan and U.S. forces several times in the past few months, most recently this week, to avoid being caught in crossfire.

At least three children, four adult patients and 12 MSF personnel died in the blasts, the aid group said. At least 37 people were wounded and many are still missing, it said.
No word yet on the status of Doctors Without Borders' #2 man.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Jennifer » 03 Oct 2015, 16:14

Sad, but at least those kids and doctors weren't killed by Russian bombs. That would've made their deaths a meaningless murderous waste.

I wish our government would stop using the euphemism "collateral damage" for "civilian deaths," but I know better than to think that'll ever happen.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Kolohe » 03 Oct 2015, 17:18

Hugh Akston wrote:At least 19 killed in US airstrike on Afghani hospital.
The U.S. military said it conducted an air strike on Saturday near a hospital run by Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) in the northern city of Kunduz that killed 19 staff and patients, including three children, the medical aid group said.

The U.S. military said it had launched a strike during battles with the Taliban that "may have resulted in collateral damage to a nearby medical facility" but said details were still not clear and promised an investigation.
The medical charity said its staff phoned military officials at NATO in Kabul and Washington during the morning attack, but bombs continued to rain down for nearly an hour.
MSF said it had given the location of the hospital to both Afghan and U.S. forces several times in the past few months, most recently this week, to avoid being caught in crossfire.

At least three children, four adult patients and 12 MSF personnel died in the blasts, the aid group said. At least 37 people were wounded and many are still missing, it said.
No word yet on the status of Doctors Without Borders' #2 man.
Clara Oswald teaches at a British public school I think.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Jennifer » 03 Oct 2015, 20:59

From Twitter @tchop_stl :
It isn't a mistake when you bomb a hospital for which you know the coordinates & then continue to bomb it for 30 min after being told again.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by lunchstealer » 05 Oct 2015, 01:25

Kolohe wrote:
Hugh Akston wrote:At least 19 killed in US airstrike on Afghani hospital.
The U.S. military said it conducted an air strike on Saturday near a hospital run by Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) in the northern city of Kunduz that killed 19 staff and patients, including three children, the medical aid group said.

The U.S. military said it had launched a strike during battles with the Taliban that "may have resulted in collateral damage to a nearby medical facility" but said details were still not clear and promised an investigation.
The medical charity said its staff phoned military officials at NATO in Kabul and Washington during the morning attack, but bombs continued to rain down for nearly an hour.
MSF said it had given the location of the hospital to both Afghan and U.S. forces several times in the past few months, most recently this week, to avoid being caught in crossfire.

At least three children, four adult patients and 12 MSF personnel died in the blasts, the aid group said. At least 37 people were wounded and many are still missing, it said.
No word yet on the status of Doctors Without Borders' #2 man.
Clara Oswald teaches at a British public school I think.
That seems impossible.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Hugh Akston » 15 Oct 2015, 08:38

War is over lol jk
President Obama plans to announce Thursday that the United States will keep 9,800 troops in Afghanistan for most of the next year, and maintain a force of 5,500 in 2017, a policy reversal that prolongs American involvement in the longest war in its history.

Obama, who had planned to reduce the number of U.S. troops to around 1,000, made the decision at the recommendation of his national security team following a months-long review of security challenges in Afghanistan, two senior administration officials said.
"The narrative that we're leaving Afghanistan is self-defeating," Defense Secretary Ashton Carter said Wednesday during a speech at the Association of the U.S. Army. "We're not, we can't and to do so would not be to take advantage of the success we've had to date."

The president who inherited wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq when he took office in 2009 did withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq in late 2011. But the American military is now providing renewed assistance in that country after the rise of the Islamic State in Iraq and neighboring Syria.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Aresen » 15 Oct 2015, 11:37

Hugh Akston wrote:War is over lol jk
President Obama plans to announce Thursday that the United States will keep 9,800 troops in Afghanistan for most of the next year, and maintain a force of 5,500 in 2017, a policy reversal that prolongs American involvement in the longest war in its history.

Obama, who had planned to reduce the number of U.S. troops to around 1,000, made the decision at the recommendation of his national security team following a months-long review of security challenges in Afghanistan, two senior administration officials said.
"The narrative that we're leaving Afghanistan is self-defeating," Defense Secretary Ashton Carter said Wednesday during a speech at the Association of the U.S. Army. "We're not, we can't and to do so would not be to take advantage of the success we've had to date."

The president who inherited wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq when he took office in 2009 did withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq in late 2011. But the American military is now providing renewed assistance in that country after the rise of the Islamic State in Iraq and neighboring Syria.
When Clinton takes office, will she still blame both wars on Bush or blame Obama? (Not serious question, she's Team Blue.)
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by thoreau » 15 Oct 2015, 11:40

I blame Carter and Reagan for Afghanistan, just to be different.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by thoreau » 15 Oct 2015, 11:56

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html
“Afghan forces are still not as strong as they need to be,” Obama said from the White House Thursday morning, explaining his decision.
WTF is he talking about? Afghan forces can pwn any invader who decides to meddle in Afghanistan. They can even pwn conventional forces nominally loyal to somebody in Kabul. If Obama wants to win a war in Afghanistan, he should strike a deal with some guys who carry Ak-47's and move their supplies around on donkeys. They'll explain to him how you win a war in Afghanistan.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by tr0g » 15 Oct 2015, 12:17

thoreau wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... story.html
“Afghan forces are still not as strong as they need to be,” Obama said from the White House Thursday morning, explaining his decision.
WTF is he talking about? Afghan forces can pwn any invader who decides to meddle in Afghanistan. They can even pwn conventional forces nominally loyal to somebody in Kabul. If Obama wants to win a war in Afghanistan, he should strike a deal with some guys who carry Ak-47's and move their supplies around on donkeys. They'll explain to him how you win a war in Afghanistan.
I don't think outsiders ever really win a war in Afghanistan, they just walk away and let the locals sort out the mess. It's not called the Graveyard of Empires for nothing.
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Re: We can win the war in Vietnam!

Post by Hugh Akston » 20 Oct 2015, 12:02

Long piece in the NYT magazine about storytelling and anonymous sourcing in the killing of bin Laden and the Hersh counternarrative:
At one point in our conversation, I reminded Hersh that I wasn’t going to offer a definitive judgment on what happened. I didn’t want to reinterview the administration officials who had already given their accounts of the events to other journalists. I saw this as more of a media story, a case study in how constructed narratives become accepted truth. This felt like a cop-out to him, as he explained in a long email the next day. He said that I was sidestepping the real issue, that I was ‘‘turning this into a ‘he-said, she-said’ dilemma,’’ instead of coming to my own conclusion about whose version was right. It was then that he introduced an even more disturbing notion: What if no one’s version could be trusted?

‘‘Of course there is no reason for you or any other journalist to take what was said to me by unnamed sources at face value,’’ Hersh wrote. ‘‘But it is my view that there also is no reason for journalists to take at face value what a White House or administration spokesman said on or off the record in the aftermath or during a crisis.’’
Over time, many of Hersh’s claims could be proved right. What then? We may be justifiably outraged. Pakistan, our putative ally in the war on terror and the beneficiary of billions of dollars in U.S. taxpayer aid, would have provided refuge to our greatest enemy — the author of the very act that prompted us to invade Afghanistan. The audacious raid on bin Laden’s compound, our greatest victory in the war on terror, would have been little more than ‘‘a turkey shoot’’ (Hersh’s phrase). Above all, our government would have lied to us.

But should we really be shocked by such a revelation? After all, it would barely register on a scale of government secrecy and deception that includes, in recent years alone, the N.S.A.’s covert wiretapping program and the C.I.A.’s off-the-books network of ‘‘black site’’ prisons. ‘‘White House public-affairs people are not historians, they are not scholars, they are not even journalists,’’ Steven Aftergood, director of the Project on Government Secrecy for the Federation of American Scientists, told me. ‘‘They are representing a political entity inside the United States government. Telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth is not their job, and even if it were their job, they would not necessarily be able to do it.’’
‘‘As a reporter in this world,’’ Bowden told me, ‘‘you have to always allow for the possibility that you are being lied to, you hope for good reason.’’
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