I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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Highway
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Highway »

Aresen wrote:My grievance with cyclists on the road is not that they want the same rights as motor vehicles. It is that they want it both ways. I have sat behind a bicycle at an intersection where the guy on the cycle is sitting in the middle of the lane, preventing me from making a right turn. But I have yet to see a cyclist coming up behind a car who does not move into the space between the car and the curb in order to get up to the intersection at the front of the line. (I am referring to cases where there is no "bike lane".
I agree that this is bad behavior. I dislike lane splitting, and think that cyclists should act like vehicles, including holding their place in line. And if it's a right turn lane, the cyclist shouldn't be in it if they're going straight (they should be in the through lane). And if it's a thru/right, then they're fine to take up the middle of the lane, like a car, when it's their turn. You'd have to wait for a car in the same situation, no?
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lunchstealer
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by lunchstealer »

Highway wrote:
Aresen wrote:My grievance with cyclists on the road is not that they want the same rights as motor vehicles. It is that they want it both ways. I have sat behind a bicycle at an intersection where the guy on the cycle is sitting in the middle of the lane, preventing me from making a right turn. But I have yet to see a cyclist coming up behind a car who does not move into the space between the car and the curb in order to get up to the intersection at the front of the line. (I am referring to cases where there is no "bike lane".
I agree that this is bad behavior. I dislike lane splitting, and think that cyclists should act like vehicles, including holding their place in line. And if it's a right turn lane, the cyclist shouldn't be in it if they're going straight (they should be in the through lane). And if it's a thru/right, then they're fine to take up the middle of the lane, like a car, when it's their turn. You'd have to wait for a car in the same situation, no?
Yeah, lane splitting is stupid and dangerous except in very rare situations.
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Highway
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Highway »

Ayn_Randian wrote:Highway, you're in "let them eat cake" territory here. Has anyone ever stopped short immediately in front of you in the grocery. That sort of jarring behavior is more than an annoyance; it's legitimately distressing, not to mention that my failure to go from 35 to 10 in mere seconds means I may kill someone. Sure, I see the cyclist and slow down, but do the three cars behind me? I sure hope so. Oh and when traffic is parked on both sides of a narrow street, you're going 10 until you can "pass", which in theory you're not even allowed to do, because that's a "vehicle".

It's like when someone is standing still on a moving sidewalk and their bag is blocking you from going around. That situation is literally every day for me and for most people I talk to.
Are you not leaving adequate stopping distance for the conditions? Then that's your fault, no matter how much you want to shift blame to another person. Or are you saying that cyclists suddenly pop out on you like kids running out from between parked cars?

And it's legal in Ohio to pass any slow vehicle, even crossing a double yellow line to do so. It is incumbent on you to do so safely.

Most places it's legal for cyclists to ride on sidewalks. This doesn't change the fact that apparently cycling on the sidewalk, when surveyed in 1992, had an accident rate 1.8 times higher than cycling in the road, and I'd imagine the injuries were similar, since the damage to a cyclist is from their speed, not the speed they get hit at. There will be accidents between drivers and cyclists. But magicking cyclists out of the way isn't going to happen.
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Ayn_Randian
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Ayn_Randian »

lunchstealer wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote:But bikes are the ones that routinely and reliably cause slowdowns. It's in their nature to do so.
And that's a problem if there are people driving who aren't competent to operate a vehicle as dangerous as a car. Maybe they should be relegated to bicycles and buses.
Please let me know when the magic unicorn comes around and shits some gold too.
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Ayn_Randian
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Ayn_Randian »

Highway wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote:Highway, you're in "let them eat cake" territory here. Has anyone ever stopped short immediately in front of you in the grocery. That sort of jarring behavior is more than an annoyance; it's legitimately distressing, not to mention that my failure to go from 35 to 10 in mere seconds means I may kill someone. Sure, I see the cyclist and slow down, but do the three cars behind me? I sure hope so. Oh and when traffic is parked on both sides of a narrow street, you're going 10 until you can "pass", which in theory you're not even allowed to do, because that's a "vehicle".

It's like when someone is standing still on a moving sidewalk and their bag is blocking you from going around. That situation is literally every day for me and for most people I talk to.
Are you not leaving adequate stopping distance for the conditions? Then that's your fault, no matter how much you want to shift blame to another person. Or are you saying that cyclists suddenly pop out on you like kids running out from between parked cars?

And it's legal in Ohio to pass any slow vehicle, even crossing a double yellow line to do so. It is incumbent on you to do so safely.

Most places it's legal for cyclists to ride on sidewalks. This doesn't change the fact that apparently cycling on the sidewalk, when surveyed in 1992, had an accident rate 1.8 times higher than cycling in the road, and I'd imagine the injuries were similar, since the damage to a cyclist is from their speed, not the speed they get hit at. There will be accidents between drivers and cyclists. But magicking cyclists out of the way isn't going to happen.
Cyclists are hard to see in many contexts. They're not popping out per se but they do appear in contexts where it's akin to looking for children on the road, yes.

Legal is not the same as safe. It's legal for me to to lift heavy things, but given my back, that doesn't make it wise or optimal. Few routes at 35 or 45 have double yellows. They do, however, have cars parked in the lanes, more frequently than not. Tell me what the outcomes were of that 1.8 multiplier. Did anyone die, like, ever?

Final point: how does your logic here not apply equally to pedestrians?

Look, if we want more people to bike, cool. I'm just saying that roads are not appropriate places to implement.
It has the effect of making me want desperately to do the opposite of what Green Day is suggesting I should want to do. Billy Joe Whassname may have created a generation of war mongers. - Jason L
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Mo
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Mo »

I deal with cyclists on my two lane street regularly and while it is annoying it costs me all of 15 seconds total. I would also not that for all the safety freakout about it pre-launch there have been exactly 0 cyclist deaths
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nicole
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by nicole »

Ayn_Randian wrote:Highway, you're in "let them eat cake" territory here. Has anyone ever stopped short immediately in front of you in the grocery. That sort of jarring behavior is more than an annoyance; it's legitimately distressing, not to mention that my failure to go from 35 to 10 in mere seconds means I may kill someone. Sure, I see the cyclist and slow down, but do the three cars behind me? I sure hope so. Oh and when traffic is parked on both sides of a narrow street, you're going 10 until you can "pass", which in theory you're not even allowed to do, because that's a "vehicle".

It's like when someone is standing still on a moving sidewalk and their bag is blocking you from going around. That situation is literally every day for me and for most people I talk to.
Or standing on the left side of an escalator. Ugh.

Yeah, everyday occurrence for sure.
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Jadagul
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Jadagul »

nicole wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote:Highway, you're in "let them eat cake" territory here. Has anyone ever stopped short immediately in front of you in the grocery. That sort of jarring behavior is more than an annoyance; it's legitimately distressing, not to mention that my failure to go from 35 to 10 in mere seconds means I may kill someone. Sure, I see the cyclist and slow down, but do the three cars behind me? I sure hope so. Oh and when traffic is parked on both sides of a narrow street, you're going 10 until you can "pass", which in theory you're not even allowed to do, because that's a "vehicle".

It's like when someone is standing still on a moving sidewalk and their bag is blocking you from going around. That situation is literally every day for me and for most people I talk to.
Or standing on the left side of an escalator. Ugh.

Yeah, everyday occurrence for sure.
You know, I feel the same way about people who walk four miles an hour and don't slalom through foot traffic appropriately. It in fact makes me angry when I'm stuck behind someone walking at a normal walking pace. But I recognize that this is a character flaw in me, not a fault in the other person.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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I am now interested to see what happens when jadagul and my wife are walking in the same place. I've never known anyone with a comfortable walking pace as fast as hers, and if she's in a hurry she transforms into what I used to call turbo turtle because I always saw that mode when she was wearing a green backpack in the airport.
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Jadagul
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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JasonL wrote:I am now interested to see what happens when jadagul and my wife are walking in the same place. I've never known anyone with a comfortable walking pace as fast as hers, and if she's in a hurry she transforms into what I used to call turbo turtle because I always saw that mode when she was wearing a green backpack in the airport.
When I'm in a hurry--or pissed off-I've actually walked over a mile in ten minutes before. That's over the speed where it's usually easier to just start jogging.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by thoreau »

What does it take to get Jadagul pissed off?

Or are there things we are better off not knowing?
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JasonL
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by JasonL »

Jadagul wrote:
JasonL wrote:I am now interested to see what happens when jadagul and my wife are walking in the same place. I've never known anyone with a comfortable walking pace as fast as hers, and if she's in a hurry she transforms into what I used to call turbo turtle because I always saw that mode when she was wearing a green backpack in the airport.
When I'm in a hurry--or pissed off-I've actually walked over a mile in ten minutes before. That's over the speed where it's usually easier to just start jogging.
We have to make this happen some how. If you couldn't at least touch a 10 min mile, you wouldn't have a prayer of keeping up with my wife.
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Jadagul
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Jadagul »

thoreau wrote:What does it take to get Jadagul pissed off?

Or are there things we are better off not knowing?
I was a bit excitable when I was younger.

Actually, this mainly came up when my college friends were complaining about how 3/4 of a mile was way too far to walk just to get to the nice dining hall rather than the shitty one. Or when they decided it was worth driving there instead. (I beat them a couple times).
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Ayn_Randian
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Ayn_Randian »

Jadagul wrote:
nicole wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote:Highway, you're in "let them eat cake" territory here. Has anyone ever stopped short immediately in front of you in the grocery. That sort of jarring behavior is more than an annoyance; it's legitimately distressing, not to mention that my failure to go from 35 to 10 in mere seconds means I may kill someone. Sure, I see the cyclist and slow down, but do the three cars behind me? I sure hope so. Oh and when traffic is parked on both sides of a narrow street, you're going 10 until you can "pass", which in theory you're not even allowed to do, because that's a "vehicle".

It's like when someone is standing still on a moving sidewalk and their bag is blocking you from going around. That situation is literally every day for me and for most people I talk to.
Or standing on the left side of an escalator. Ugh.

Yeah, everyday occurrence for sure.
You know, I feel the same way about people who walk four miles an hour and don't slalom through foot traffic appropriately. It in fact makes me angry when I'm stuck behind someone walking at a normal walking pace. But I recognize that this is a character flaw in me, not a fault in the other person.
Good analogy except for the small flaw where 4MPH is normal and you're abnormally above the prevailing rate, where the bike, however, is well below the prevailing rate. If I were talking about how pissed off it makes me when people go 65 because I want to go 100, that would make sense. But that's not what I'm talking about.

Kudos for you on the character flaw thing.
It has the effect of making me want desperately to do the opposite of what Green Day is suggesting I should want to do. Billy Joe Whassname may have created a generation of war mongers. - Jason L
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Mo
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Mo »

Should we ban tourists from the sidewalks of NYC? They go 3 when everyone else is going 5 and they stop short all the time.

It's not like bikes are on interstates, they're on streets where the speed limit is 25-35 miles an hour. The thing is cars will slow down significantly for a car going 25 on a 25 road as well.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Aresen »

Mo wrote:Should we ban tourists from the sidewalks of NYC? They go 3 when everyone else is going 5 and they stop short all the time.
Wouldn't it just be simpler to quarantine NYC altogether? :P
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by nicole »

Mo wrote:Should we ban tourists from the sidewalks of NYC? They go 3 when everyone else is going 5 and they stop short all the time.

It's not like bikes are on interstates, they're on streets where the speed limit is 25-35 miles an hour. The thing is cars will slow down significantly for a car going 25 on a 25 road as well.
Is that supposed to be funny? Maybe people don't realize this is why some of us are libertarians; slow side-walkers would be first against the wall. Imma have to walk to work down 8th Ave in Midtown this week and if being pointedly, retardedly in the way isn't aggression I don't know what is. Get out of everyone's way as fast as you can. That's the only thing holding society together. Why on earth it would be a personality flaw to be impatient but not to actively fuck with people is beyond me.

And bikes are just like buses, delivery vans, etc. Another pain in the ass that slows down traffic as everyone passes them. But we're supposed to act like they're something other than that because environment.
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Highway
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Highway »

nicole wrote:And bikes are just like buses, delivery vans, etc. Another pain in the ass that slows down traffic as everyone passes them. But we're supposed to act like they're something other than that because environment.
I don't think anyone's asking you to act like they're something different. Heck, treat them like that other stuff: they have a right to be on the road, and you don't hit them. Noone's asking you to like them.
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nicole
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by nicole »

Cyclists and environmentalists are.

I mean, that's how I treat them in practice. I would say based on these discussions I'm more likely than anyone here to do normal, everyday drives involving a lot of bicycles, buses, and other nonmoving vehicles, more likely to drive places with dedicated bike lanes that have actual traffic (car and bike), and more likely to drive places without bike lanes that have lots of bikes. Cycling is also illegal here on the sidewalk if you're over 12. It's not a matter of "I don't know how to drive," it's a matter of recognizing these are all things that make the driving experience worse.

I'm also probably the most frequently almost-hit-by-a-bike person here (as a pedestrian), so no, I don't have a lot of love, either. And I say that with $10k in bikes sitting in the next room.
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

How many bicycle riders would be willing to pay an annual bicycle registration fee that collectively approaches the cost of building and maintaining those bicycle lanes?
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Kolohe
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Kolohe »

D.A. Ridgely wrote:How many bicycle riders would be willing to pay an annual bicycle registration fee that collectively approaches the cost of building and maintaining those bicycle lanes?
How many motorists are willing to pay gas taxes and registration fees that approached the cost of building and maintaining those roads. (to say nothing of the externalities)
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Mo
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Mo »

I would also note that maintenance of bike lanes is minimal. The cost of maintenance is related to vehicle weight. The damage a bike does to a road is indistinguishable from the damage a pedestrian does to a sidewalk.

To be fair, the vast majority of damage done to roads comes from large vehicles, like trucks.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Kolohe wrote:
D.A. Ridgely wrote:How many bicycle riders would be willing to pay an annual bicycle registration fee that collectively approaches the cost of building and maintaining those bicycle lanes?
How many motorists are willing to pay gas taxes and registration fees that approached the cost of building and maintaining those roads. (to say nothing of the externalities)
I don't know. I do know, however, that they pay substantially more of those costs than bicyclists do. Bicycle lanes are either, um, appropriated from streets that were designed for motor vehicle traffic and parking or designed as part of new roads but in neither case do they come close to paying for themselves. As matters currently stand, it strikes me that they're a pretty straightforward case of robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by lunchstealer »

nicole wrote:
Mo wrote:Should we ban tourists from the sidewalks of NYC? They go 3 when everyone else is going 5 and they stop short all the time.

It's not like bikes are on interstates, they're on streets where the speed limit is 25-35 miles an hour. The thing is cars will slow down significantly for a car going 25 on a 25 road as well.
Is that supposed to be funny? Maybe people don't realize this is why some of us are libertarians; slow side-walkers would be first against the wall. Imma have to walk to work down 8th Ave in Midtown this week and if being pointedly, retardedly in the way isn't aggression I don't know what is. Get out of everyone's way as fast as you can. That's the only thing holding society together. Why on earth it would be a personality flaw to be impatient but not to actively fuck with people is beyond me.

And bikes are just like buses, delivery vans, etc. Another pain in the ass that slows down traffic as everyone passes them. But we're supposed to act like they're something other than that because environment.
No, you're not supposed to act like they're not pains in the asses, you're supposed to accept that sometimes you're a pain in someone else's ass, and sometimes someone's a pain in your ass, and grow the fuck up and deal with the fact that they're there, have every right to be there, they're not doing it to inconvenience you, and you can just grow some goddamned patience.
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nicole
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by nicole »

lunchstealer wrote:
nicole wrote:
Mo wrote:Should we ban tourists from the sidewalks of NYC? They go 3 when everyone else is going 5 and they stop short all the time.

It's not like bikes are on interstates, they're on streets where the speed limit is 25-35 miles an hour. The thing is cars will slow down significantly for a car going 25 on a 25 road as well.
Is that supposed to be funny? Maybe people don't realize this is why some of us are libertarians; slow side-walkers would be first against the wall. Imma have to walk to work down 8th Ave in Midtown this week and if being pointedly, retardedly in the way isn't aggression I don't know what is. Get out of everyone's way as fast as you can. That's the only thing holding society together. Why on earth it would be a personality flaw to be impatient but not to actively fuck with people is beyond me.

And bikes are just like buses, delivery vans, etc. Another pain in the ass that slows down traffic as everyone passes them. But we're supposed to act like they're something other than that because environment.
No, you're not supposed to act like they're not pains in the asses, you're supposed to accept that sometimes you're a pain in someone else's ass, and sometimes someone's a pain in your ass, and grow the fuck up and deal with the fact that they're there, have every right to be there, they're not doing it to inconvenience you, and you can just grow some goddamned patience.
Yeah. But some people spent time and effort trying not to be in other people's way. And some people don't.
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