Rules, RVs, and a four-story phallus: the HOA thread

[Warren]

PICS ELLIE
I demand pics of your home.

[Taktix®]

Man, if only someone here at the gryll worked at a large corporate law firm whose main specialty is Community Association and HOA law...

I'm sure the technical details of such things vary from state to state, but if the concern is that someone from outside the complex will fall off our swingset and sue us, can't we cover our asses sufficiently by just posting a sign that says something like, "No trespassing, for residents only, non-residents assume their own liability"?

You're probably right that I would be of limited assistance for both being in a different state and not an actual attorney, but I can say that Florida is both highly regulated and highly litigious, and there are many complexes and subdivisions with playgrounds around, and they all have some signage at least specifying a recommended minimum age and that playing is at your own risk. While there will certainly be differences in laws there, I can say with 95% certainty there is some way to cover said asses, though it would more likely be after the fact through insurance as people claim all sorts of bullshit to get around posted warnings.

Point is, I'd bet they board member(s) trying to tear down the playground is/are bluffing and I'm sure there's some simple way to both CYA and keep the playground.

What I can tell you is that boards tend to pull all sorts of shit that other elected bodies can't get away with because of an HOA's low visibility, and until you can get elected to the board itself, keep a close eye out for hastily- and/or haphazardly-announced board meetings, as they might try to get unpopular things passed when no one's looking...

[tr0g]

In my experience, people that want to tear down playgrounds because of liability concerns are lying. They simply don't want to hear the shrieking that comes with small children at play. They justify it by liability concerns, because saying "I hatw the sound of children at play" makes you look bad in comparison to Ebenezer Scrooge.

More seriously, if your POA has common areas they already have liability insurance, so I can't imagine a playground adds much more to the bill. I mean, unless the playground is a box of lawn darts and a sign that says "Go nuts", that is.

[lunchstealer]

In my experience, people that want to tear down playgrounds because of liability concerns are lying. They simply don't want to hear the shrieking that comes with small children at play. They justify it by liability concerns, because saying "I hatw the sound of children at play" makes you look bad in comparison to Ebenezer Scrooge.

More seriously, if your POA has common areas they already have liability insurance, so I can't imagine a playground adds much more to the bill. I mean, unless the playground is a box of lawn darts and a sign that says "Go nuts", that is.

But is equally justifiable as Scrooge. The screeching cries of partly-formed humans are, as all good people agree, most irksome.

[Warren]

In my experience, people that want to tear down playgrounds because of liability concerns are lawyers.

[Fin Fang Foom]

In my experience, people that want to tear down playgrounds because of liability concerns are lawyers.

It's great that your sense of cynicism is as flawed as your economic reasoning.

[thoreau]

Once upon a time I was convinced that the world was being overrun with frivolous lawsuits. Now, I still acknowledge that frivolous lawsuits are a real part of the landscape, but I'm no longer convinced that they're such an omnipresent threat as some would like you to fear. There isn't much of a difference between "OMG! The world is full of hazards!" and "OMG! The world is full of people who will sue over false hazards!"

[JasonL]

Once upon a time I was convinced that the world was being overrun with frivolous lawsuits. Now, I still acknowledge that frivolous lawsuits are a real part of the landscape, but I'm no longer convinced that they're such an omnipresent threat as some would like you to fear. There isn't much of a difference between "OMG! The world is full of hazards!" and "OMG! The world is full of people who will sue over false hazards!"

Agree. I was looking into why my perception had changed over time a few years ago and I stumbled into this kind of interesting take: http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/oli ... er_681.pdf

Most of the measures we examined above suggest that America is not that
unusual. In suits per capita, the ratio between the US and the UK is less than that between
the UK and Canada. Americans do have more judges per capita, but fewer than the
French, and “judge” is hard to define anyway. Americans have the most lawyers per
capita, but not many more than Australians. And Americans seem not to find contracts
especially hard to enforce, or to face unusually high automobile insurance premia.
Why, then, the American notoriety? It does not result from the way the legal
system handles routine disputes. Instead, it derives from the peculiarly dysfunctional
way courts handle several discrete types of disputes. We will look at two as examples:
securities class actions, and asbestos cases. Although aggregate quantitative measures
suggest that litigation in the U.S. does not differ substantially from litigation in other
wealthy democracies, aggregation over a myriad of myriads can hide a myriad of sins. In
several discrete areas, American courts function in a manner one can only describe as
disastrous.

[Kolohe]

Ohio House approves 89-2 bill that would prohibit manufactured home park operators, condominium associations, neighborhood associations and landlords from restricting the display of the thin blue line flag

I do think that having the 'Blue Lives Matter' flag on your home in the trailer park is the equivalent of having the 'Black owned' sign on your business during the Rodney King riots.

[Mo]

IANAL, but is that legal under the 1A?

[Kolohe]

My guess is that if you telling a group that they *cannot* restrict a speech right of an individual, you're on pretty solid ground. (They're not mandating the flag be flown, rather they are prohibiting a prohibition)

[Kolohe]

Without looking it up, I'm also guessing this is in a larger set of rules of what HOA's can't do, which I'm guessing currently has something that says you can't stop the display of an American flag.

[lunchstealer]

It might run afoul of the 1a in that it is content specific and favors one viewpoint over another.

[pistoffnick]

HOA passes a new rule that your garage door must be left open during the day (even if you are not home).

In addition to that, all citizens will be required to change their underwear every half-hour. Underwear will be worn on the outside so we can check.

[Jennifer]

That rule sounds stupid even by HOA standards. The story doesn't list any possible rationale for such a rule, either.

[Warren]

That rule sounds stupid even by HOA standards. The story doesn't list any possible rationale for such a rule, either.

You have to actually, you know, read the story.

"I have nothing to hide. I understand somebody had people living in the garage. I don’t. I am following the rules," Ia said. "All I am asking is a reasonable way to get around this. If you want to do a monthly, bi-monthly inspection of my garage, I have nothing to hide. If I have something that's being stored in there and you don’t like it I’ll remove it."

[Jennifer]

That rule sounds stupid even by HOA standards. The story doesn't list any possible rationale for such a rule, either.

You have to actually, you know, read the story.

"I have nothing to hide. I understand somebody had people living in the garage. I don’t. I am following the rules," Ia said. "All I am asking is a reasonable way to get around this. If you want to do a monthly, bi-monthly inspection of my garage, I have nothing to hide. If I have something that's being stored in there and you don’t like it I’ll remove it."

I actually, you know, read the story but missed that part.

Still a bullshit rationale, IMO. Not just due to the whole "punishing everybody due to one rule breaker" aspect, either.

[Highway]

The story doesn't give actual reasons for why the HOA thinks this is an appropriate remedy, nor verification that "people living in a garage" is the reasoning for the rule. If you think people are living in the garage, then 1) why the fuck do you care. If people are exceeding the residency of the house then, as much as I hate calling the cops, call the cops. It's just HOA's doing what they do best: being petty and nosy.

[Aresen]

The story doesn't give actual reasons for why the HOA thinks this is an appropriate remedy, nor verification that "people living in a garage" is the reasoning for the rule. If you think people are living in the garage, then 1) why the fuck do you care. If people are exceeding the residency of the house then, as much as I hate calling the cops, call the cops. It's just HOA's doing what they do best: being petty and nosy.

Unless, of course, the HOA board is composed of members of the Thieves, House Robbers, and Underhanded Stealers Hierarchy.

[Jennifer]

Missouri law is so fucked up, an HOA can put a lien on your home even if the HOA is totally fake:

http://fox4kc.com/2018/02/08/fake-homeo ... -go-unpaid

For years, people living in a quiet neighborhood in the Northland ignored the invoices that arrived in their mail demanding payment to a homeowners association.

“Just want to let you know it's a scam,” Tony Navarro said he was told when he moved to the Summerfield subdivision. “This is not an HOA neighborhood at all. There are no monthly fees.”

But then, just before Christmas, a $445 lien was filed against Navarro’s home and more than 30 others.

The reason? For not paying dues to the Summerfield Homeowners Association. An HOA that has no board and provides no services.

If you call the phone number for the company that runs the HOA -- Column's Park LLC: “It's some random guy that answers,” neighbor Jesse Kaucher said.

“He told me he had the number for five years," Kaucher said. "He asked me to let the community know it’s not him. That's how you know it's a scam.”

That’s why neighbors called FOX4 Problem Solvers. Even though the HOA may be fake, the liens are real. Neighbors have had to hire attorney Ed Ford to get them removed.

The filing of fake liens and other documents has become a big problem in Missouri. The owners of a $4 million mansion in St. Louis had to go to court to prevent a woman they accused of filing a fake quit claim deed from taking possession of their home.

“I was stunned,” said Rep. Kirk Mathews, R-Pacific. “ I did not know this practice existed.”

Mathews has since learned it’s easy to file fake documents because the recorder of deeds in each county doesn’t have the manpower to check out the legitimacy of each claim.

“They are just stamping it, stamping it and it’s filed and done,” said Mathews who has sponsored legislation to make filing fake documents a felony. “Hopefully this bill will provide some real teeth for law enforcement to go after the people who are doing this.”

Meanwhile back in Kansas City, Problem Solvers wanted to help the Summerfield neighborhood get rid of those liens.

We paid a visit to Karen Sue Lovell, who filed the liens and is listed as manager of the Summerfield HOA in a letter she sent to homeowners.

We tried to talk to Lovell, but she wouldn’t even open the door of her home. Speaking behind a window, she told us she had no comment.

Later Lovell’s attorney wrote to FOX4 that Lovell thought the neighborhood should have an HOA to pay for the upkeep of the lot containing the neighborhood’s drainage basin.

FOX4 Problem Solvers found it surprising that Lovell cared since she lives in Independence -- far from the Summerfield neighborhood.

We also wanted to speak to the other person behind the fake Summerfiled HOA, but he was even harder to reach.

Al Roberts is in federal prison, convicted of $3 million in mortgage fraud. Roberts, a retired Kansas City school teacher, formed Column's Park, the company behind the HOA. Roberts also sent out the initial invoices to homeowners.

Ford, the attorney hired by homeowners, said he spoke with Roberts after that first invoice arrived.

“I very nicely said, 'What the heck are you thinking?' said Ford, who then informed Roberts what he was doing was illegal.

“I thought I had properly educated him but apparently not," Ford said.

A relative of Roberts told FOX4 that Roberts is still running the company from his federal prison cell. That’s something the attorney representing Column's Park denied.

The good news is that with Ford’s help the liens have now been dismissed. However, neighbors are worried that there’s nothing preventing it from happening again.

To be fair, I doubt this is unique to Missouri, given other stories I've seen from other states, on such themes as "illegal squatters manage to legally steal home while owners are away on vacation" or some such thing.

[Ellie]

Our board is down to three members because two quit citing that they might want to sue the board if they can't sell their properties (sue the board for decision made while they were on the board ... ) Anyway, we're getting new insurance on the complex and I was outvoted 2-1 to pay an extra $500 for insurance against an act of terrorism on our property.

[Highway]

Did they also vote for the decision? Was it justified with the usual "keep our property values up" bullshit?

[Ellie]

Justified with, "Well, if you watch the news ..." and I was not even going to bother arguing at that point.

[Highway]

Justified with, "Well, if you watch the news ..." and I was not even going to bother arguing at that point.

No, sorry, I meant the "decisions made while they were on the board that they're now going to sue over". The terrorism thing is just people being stupid.

[Jennifer]

Why do they think the board would be sue-able if their properties don't sell?