the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

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Kolohe
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Kolohe » 20 Mar 2015, 09:07

For the people walking the halls of power in Riyadh and Teheran, it's cold enough, just like Vietnam (and Afghanistan) (in the 80s) was cold enough from the equivalent halls in Washington and Moscow.

I'm using the term anti-western in a subtler way. There is a strain of thought in a lot of the so-called developing world (and especially in the Middle East and Latin America) that, even if some or most adherents embrace small d democracy, they are reflexively opposed to anything that has the cachet of European and American legacy influence. It normally gets presented as 'anti-imperialist, anti-colonialist' in the rhetoric. It also often becomes an antagonism towards multinational corporations. Last, it often manifests itself as a dislike for any actions of the government of Israel that can be portrayed negatively in the world media.

Illustration of the last - right around the time I was ending my tour in Afghanistan, they held a National Consultative Peace Jirga. Now, you'd figure a country like Afghanistan would have a lot on its plate at a peace conference, basically having been at war on and off for over 30 years at that point. Plus, since the Taliban and HiG boycotted, only the pro-US (and the not overly anti-US) elements of Afghan political ecosystem attended.

Nonetheless, despite everything that was going on, they managed to find the time to add a bullet point to their final resolution that went out of their way to condemn the (then recent, and 2nd iirc) Israeli commando raid on the Turkish flagged ship that was going to sail to Gaza.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 22 Mar 2015, 12:33

Kolohe wrote:
Fin Fang Foom wrote:I think Bibi may have fucked Israel in the butt. At some point the Republicans will lose interest, and the Dems are slowly becoming less into them.
The Republicans won't lose interest. Israeli military and political domination of its region is a core belief in two of the stool legs in the Republican political coalition.
I don't think it'll happen by 2016, but it might happen by 2036. Israel hasn't had great relations with its neighbors for the last 67 years, and I don't have any reason to suspect that they'll get good in my lifetime.

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Mo
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Mo » 21 Oct 2015, 12:24

What the shit? It's a strange world when the PM of Israel lets the Germans off the hook for the Holocaust and the Germans are like, "Yo, our bad."
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thoreau
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 21 Oct 2015, 13:16

Mo wrote:What the shit? It's a strange world when the PM of Israel lets the Germans off the hook for the Holocaust and the Germans are like, "Yo, our bad."
The Holocaust was brought on by strange monotheistic Semitic people from the Middle East, yo.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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fyodor
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by fyodor » 21 Oct 2015, 14:41

Mo wrote:What the shit? It's a strange world when the PM of Israel lets the Germans off the hook for the Holocaust and the Germans are like, "Yo, our bad."
I don't think he did that. What he said was still foolish and inaccurate and rather ridiculous (why would Hitler even give much of a shit what al-Husseini wanted?), but I don't think he was letting Hitler off the hook, though I realize there's been beaucoup belly-aching to that effect. But people, blame is not binary or zero-sum, you don't automatically remove it from one party when you put some on another. Nowhere did Bibi-won claim the Nazis were not responsible for carrying out the Holocaust, only that Hitler was responding to al-Husseini's wishes in doing so. Um, did I mention that even suggesting that was foolish and inaccurate and rather ridiculous? I think I did. It's weird when someone says or does something stupid but you still think the reaction to it is inaccurate and off base as well, but that's what I'm saying.
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Jennifer
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Jennifer » 21 Oct 2015, 19:17

He may not have been letting Hitler off the hook, but he sure as fuck was trying to stick the Palestinians on it.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by lunchstealer » 21 Oct 2015, 19:34

I guess they're trying to spread the love of the Israeli-Apartheid SBD movement. "Sure, we're horrible and racist like the PW Botha government, but our ANC-analogue is literally worse than Hitler."
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 21 Oct 2015, 21:24

I think I will outlast Israel.

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Aresen
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 22 Oct 2015, 00:14

Fin Fang Foom wrote:I think I will outlast Israel.
Israel's greatest strength is her enemies.
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Aresen
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 22 Oct 2015, 10:38

Peace Through Ethnic Cleansing
JERUSALEM (AP) -- On a recent morning, at a time of soaring Israeli-Palestinian tensions and massive police deployment in Jerusalem, security forces carried out an eviction order: Troops sealed off parts of the Arab neighborhood of Silwan and removed two families from their apartments to allow the entry of Jews named by a court as the rightful owners.

The evictions are part of a house-by-house battle waged by Jewish settler groups - at times with government support - to expand their presence in Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem's ancient heart, an area the Palestinians seek as the core of a future capital.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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fyodor
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by fyodor » 22 Oct 2015, 12:37

Jennifer wrote:He may not have been letting Hitler off the hook, but he sure as fuck was trying to stick the Palestinians on it.
Well yeah, sure. And as you can just see, I won't argue with that. I agree with that. I do argue with the notion that he's taking Hitler off the hook, which is worth arguing with because that's what everyone, but everyone, including Mo in his post, has been saying. That said, it appears you agree with me. Thank you! :D ;)
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

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fyodor
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by fyodor » 22 Oct 2015, 13:05

Aresen wrote:Peace Through Ethnic Cleansing
JERUSALEM (AP) -- On a recent morning, at a time of soaring Israeli-Palestinian tensions and massive police deployment in Jerusalem, security forces carried out an eviction order: Troops sealed off parts of the Arab neighborhood of Silwan and removed two families from their apartments to allow the entry of Jews named by a court as the rightful owners.

The evictions are part of a house-by-house battle waged by Jewish settler groups - at times with government support - to expand their presence in Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem's ancient heart, an area the Palestinians seek as the core of a future capital.
The article seems biased, but I don't doubt the evictions for settlers thing, and that's pretty fucked up.
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thoreau
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 22 Oct 2015, 13:07

Fin Fang Foom wrote:I think I will outlast Israel.
I think that messes can keep on keeping on longer than any sane person would have predicted.

That's either a comment on Israel or your lifetstyle :D
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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thoreau
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 10 May 2016, 12:23

Guess who sponsored Netanyahu's campaign, according to the Panama papers?

http://www.middleeastobserver.org/panam ... s-campaign
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Aresen
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 10 May 2016, 13:01

thoreau wrote:Guess who sponsored Netanyahu's campaign, according to the Panama papers?

http://www.middleeastobserver.org/panam ... s-campaign
:shock:

If true, that is the strangest pair of bedfellows I have ever heard of.
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Hugh Akston
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Hugh Akston » 10 May 2016, 13:06

"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
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thoreau
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 10 May 2016, 13:12

Aresen wrote:
thoreau wrote:Guess who sponsored Netanyahu's campaign, according to the Panama papers?

http://www.middleeastobserver.org/panam ... s-campaign
:shock:

If true, that is the strangest pair of bedfellows I have ever heard of.
The Saudi royals hate Iran, as does Netanyahu, but an Israeli politician has more clout with the US (at least in public) than a Saudi royal. So, if your goal is to prevent the US and Iran from ever getting to anything that even vaguely resembles diplomatic interactions and compromise, you want to make sure that Israel is run by a hard-liner who will not hesitate to push on the US President and Congress.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 10 May 2016, 13:46

Only in public. Behind closed doors, Our Good Friends the Saudis have a far easier time lobbying or, conversely, being asked to pay for something.

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dbcooper
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by dbcooper » 10 May 2016, 18:19

Israel also provides an external focus for troublemakers in Saudi Arabia.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

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Warren
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Warren » 10 May 2016, 18:41

dbcooper wrote:Israel also provides an external focus for troublemakers in Saudi Arabia.
BINGO
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

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lunchstealer
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by lunchstealer » 10 May 2016, 19:54

Warren wrote:
dbcooper wrote:Israel also provides an external focus for troublemakers in Saudi Arabia.
BINGO
Yep. The Irantagonism is just icing on the cake.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Warren » 28 Jun 2016, 11:15

THIS SPACE FOR RENT

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Andrew
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Andrew » 29 Dec 2016, 08:08

The Team Red blogs that I read are losing their minds over the UN resolution and Kerry's speech. I guess neither strike me as earth shattering. A useless UN resolution like all the rest and some words that won't actually change the flow of money/arms to Israel... oh nose!
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thoreau
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 29 Dec 2016, 12:20

But the "benefits" that the US derives from supporting Israel are as tangible as a UN resolution, so the sound and fury seem proportionate in that light.

Sent from a phone so their may be speling errors and autocorrect snafu's.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 29 Dec 2016, 12:33

How we all die:

Trump is basically for whatever the far right in Israel wants.

Bibi can't pretend that there isn't a reason to not do whatever, whereas not totally pissing off Obama and breaking the relationship was important. No risk now.

Israel moves full steam ahead on settlements, etc.

Middle East is pissed off.

UNSC stuff happens.

Russia backs the rest of the Middle East since it needs to keep OPEC happy.

Trump goes apeshit at Putin's "betrayal," wakes at 3am, calls for the football, and tweets just after launch, "There's nothing biglier than a nuclear first strike."

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