the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

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Aresen
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 12 Aug 2014, 13:42

thoreau wrote:http://m.chronicle.com/article/Israeli- ... cry/148357

I can't see somebody getting away with an analogous statement from a pro-Palestinian viewpoint
I can't read the full article, but it appears that the pro-Isreal spokesman said something about 'rape as a deterent to Hamas'. If I am correct in this assumption, I am surprised he is not getting hammered.

TBS, some pro-Palestinian speakers have said some pretty outrageous things over the years and still get lionized by their supporters.

I'm going to go with the TEAM thing causing people to overlook the warts on their own side. I suspect, in both cases, each is talking to their support base.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 02 Jan 2015, 15:00

I endorse everything that Daniel Larison says here:
Earlier this week I mentioned that Indiana Gov. Mike Pence repeatedly called Israel “our most cherished ally” in a speech he gave during his visit there. I called that claim risible, and it is is, but it is such an inaccurate statement that it deserves a little more comment. American politicians from both parties frequently feel compelled to express excessive enthusiasm for the U.S.-Israel relationship, and that relationship is always described in terms of an alliance, but that doesn’t describe the relationship very well at all. The U.S. gains almost nothing from the relationship, there is no formal treaty that commits either state to the defense of the other, and one would be hard-pressed to think of anything that Israel has done that would make the U.S. more secure as a result of this relationship. So it is a mistake to call Israel an ally.

If Israel’s isn’t really an ally, it certainly can’t be the “most cherished” one that the U.S. has. I it were technically an ally, it would still be a mistake to exaggerate its importance in this way. The U.S. gets very little from the relationship at some considerable cost, and the relationship is far less valuable for U.S. security than our relationships with genuine treaty allies. It would be much more accurate to say that Israel is one of our more troublesome clients that is becoming an ever-greater liability to the U.S. as time goes by. The U.S.-Israel relationship would be less dysfunctional and possibly more constructive if our politicians and policymakers stopped lying to themselves and to the rest of us about the importance of that relationship for the U.S.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Hugh Akston » 02 Jan 2015, 15:04

Israel is America's favorite parasite.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Mo » 02 Jan 2015, 15:57

I thought that was the elderly.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by JasonL » 02 Jan 2015, 16:07

You see anyone trying to put Israel up in a home and take away their license?

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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Taktix® » 02 Jan 2015, 16:31

JasonL wrote:You see anyone trying to put Israel up in a home and take away their license?
Ahmadinejad was, according to the Daily Caller...
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 02 Jan 2015, 16:34

JasonL wrote:You see anyone trying to put Israel up in a home and take away their license?
Well, it appears Obama has revoked their "Bomb Iran" permit.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by lunchstealer » 02 Jan 2015, 17:11

Mo wrote:I thought that was the elderly.
We don't like the elderly.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 02 Jan 2015, 17:27

lunchstealer wrote:
Mo wrote:I thought that was the elderly.
We don't like the elderly.
Tell that to a politician meeting an AARP lobbyist.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Mo » 16 Mar 2015, 21:55

Is there a surer sign of losing an election that calling Chuck Norris to cut a campaign ad for you?
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Warren » 16 Mar 2015, 22:06

Mo wrote:Is there a surer sign of losing an election that calling Chuck Norris to cut a campaign ad for you?
Well they could get... then there's always... no, I don't think there is.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 16 Mar 2015, 22:07

I think Bibi should skip past the small-time stuff and seek the GOP nomination for President.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by JasonL » 17 Mar 2015, 11:10

Mo wrote:Is there a surer sign of losing an election that calling Chuck Norris to cut a campaign ad for you?
Too bad he's not running against Putin. We could have Norris vs. Seagal in an old man macho douche thunderdome.

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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by lunchstealer » 17 Mar 2015, 11:16

JasonL wrote:
Mo wrote:Is there a surer sign of losing an election that calling Chuck Norris to cut a campaign ad for you?
Too bad he's not running against Putin. We could have Norris vs. Seagal in an old man macho douche thunderdome.
Norris is more macho less douche, Segal is more douche, less macho (not for lack of trying, but for lack of success)
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Taktix® » 17 Mar 2015, 11:40

lunchstealer wrote:
JasonL wrote:
Mo wrote:Is there a surer sign of losing an election that calling Chuck Norris to cut a campaign ad for you?
Too bad he's not running against Putin. We could have Norris vs. Seagal in an old man macho douche thunderdome.
Norris is more macho less douche, Segal is more douche, less macho (not for lack of trying, but for lack of success)
Yes, macho-ness has a reverse correlation with chunkiness over age. (See: Danzig, Glen and VD, JC)...
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Hugh Akston » 18 Mar 2015, 22:55

So this headline caught my attention: U.S. support for Israel could slip after Netanyahu victory (Trigger warning: autoplay video)
While supporters of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spent Wednesday celebrating his surprise victory at the polls, the Obama administration took a much dimmer view of the results.

A senior administration official said that Netanyahu's sharp tacks to the right before Tuesday's vote -- in which he ruled out the creation of a Palestinian state, a pillar of U.S. policy in the Middle East -- "raise very significant substantive concerns" for the White House, and that "we have to reassess our options going forward."

Another senior U.S. official told CNN that Netanyahu's nixing of Palestinian statehood "could change things" for the U.S.-Israel relationship.
And I was like "wow, has BiBi finally screamed at his parents that he hates them and they can't tell him what to do and slammed his door one too many times and now they're ready to send him off to military school?"
U.S. officials and members of Congress stress, however, that the tensions with Israel won't lead to any cuts to the massive security aid package the U.S. funnels to Israel every year or to any change in the close military cooperation between the two countries.

"I think the military to military and intelligence cooperation is going to go on no matter who is in that office," California Rep. Adam Schiff, a Democrat, told CNN as Israelis flocked to the polls, though he warned that the relationship between Netanyahu and Obama could deteriorate even further.
Haha, nope. Apparently "support" in this case means "the nice things we say about them" rather than "the embarrassing amounts of money we send them."
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 18 Mar 2015, 23:23

Hugh Akston wrote:
A senior administration official said that Netanyahu's sharp tacks to the right before Tuesday's vote -- in which he ruled out the creation of a Palestinian state, a pillar of U.S. policy in the Middle East -- "raise very significant substantive concerns" for the White House, and that "we have to reassess our options going forward."

Another senior U.S. official told CNN that Netanyahu's nixing of Palestinian statehood "could change things" for the U.S.-Israel relationship.
[s]George Wallace[/s]Benjamin Netanyahu wrote: I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 18 Mar 2015, 23:30

That quote on "segregation forever" works on a number of levels...
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 19 Mar 2015, 00:16

I think Bibi may have fucked Israel in the butt. At some point the Republicans will lose interest, and the Dems are slowly becoming less into them.

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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 19 Mar 2015, 00:48

Fin Fang Foom wrote:I think Bibi may have fucked Israel in the butt. At some point the Republicans will lose interest, and the Dems are slowly becoming less into them.
The main thing that Israel has going for it is that the countries around it have no idea how to play the American political system. Sure, the governments make nice to American politicians, but there are always enough 'Death to Israel nutjobs around who want to blow themselves up to play to the fears of the Chuck Schumers of the US.

ISIS alone has probably guaranteed Israel a blank cheque on the US treasury for the next generation.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Mo » 19 Mar 2015, 09:22

They're lucky HillDog is probably going to be the Blue nominee because otherwise alienating Team Blue could lead to bad ends with UNSC support. Netanyahu's complete lack of subtlety re: "the Arabs are voting" is like Nixon's Southern Strategy without any veneer of subtlety or plausible deniability.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Kolohe » 19 Mar 2015, 11:44

Fin Fang Foom wrote:I think Bibi may have fucked Israel in the butt. At some point the Republicans will lose interest, and the Dems are slowly becoming less into them.
The Republicans won't lose interest. Israeli military and political domination of its region is a core belief in two of the stool legs in the Republican political coalition.
Aresen wrote:The main thing that Israel has going for it is that the countries around it have no idea how to play the American political system.
The main thing Israel has going for it is that none of its neighbors particularly like the Palestinians either, but are more than willing to use them as pawns to appease their own anti-western populations and as proxies in the Shia-Sunni cold war.

Saudi Arabia and Jordan know how to use the US political system well enough. So did/does Egypt. Syria never gotten along with the US, but they're a basket case now. Iraq sometimes gets along with the US, but most of the time not, and they are also a basket case. Iran is only credible adversary of Israel at this point, but they, too, have their own problems, and are only really in favor of one faction of the Palestinian body politic.
Mo wrote:They're lucky HillDog is probably going to be the Blue nominee because otherwise alienating Team Blue could lead to bad ends with UNSC support. Netanyahu's complete lack of subtlety re: "the Arabs are voting" is like Nixon's Southern Strategy without any veneer of subtlety or plausible deniability.
Even Warren or O'Malley are likely to hire establishment Dems in the SecState and SecDef positions, leading to no substantial changes in US policy.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Mo » 19 Mar 2015, 11:46

Though a lot could happen in the next 18 months
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Kolohe » 19 Mar 2015, 12:46

Maybe. Anonymously sourced Politico yik yak is the most common form of passive aggressive score settling and wish fulfillment. Though I hadn't realized that some of the usual diplomatic logjams were as close to clearing as that article reported. (i.e. I thought the UK was still on the US side in the UNSC, and I hadn't known that the ICC is (potentially) accepting Palestinian cases starting next month.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Aresen » 19 Mar 2015, 20:31

Kolohe wrote:
Aresen wrote:The main thing that Israel has going for it is that the countries around it have no idea how to play the American political system.
The main thing Israel has going for it is that none of its neighbors particularly like the Palestinians either, but are more than willing to use them as pawns to appease their own anti-western populations and as proxies in the Shia-Sunni cold war.
It doesn't look like a 'cold' war from where I sit.

And it is that bit about using the Palestinians (and other proxies) as pawns to appease the anti-western populations that is enabling the Israelis and AIPAC to portray the Muslim countries as irreconcilably opposed to any form of liberal democracy.
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