the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

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JasonL
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by JasonL » 03 Jun 2010, 14:28

dhex wrote:i will never understand the hostility of conservatives and more reddish libertoids towards the cold calculations of colonized countries towards their overlords, while applauding enemy of my enemy thinking amongst anti-communist types, no matter how bloody they might be. well, i understand it, but i don't get it.
It's a certain view of values alignment and self interest. The general view is probably something like, "There are Communists and Whatever We Call Radical Islamists that are essentially irreconcilable enemies of the US. Whatever causes them pain is a blessing."

There are a number of areas to dispute in there, but I get the argument.

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Jennifer
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Jennifer » 03 Jun 2010, 15:07

I think the founding of Israel was a good idea (the horror of Nazi Germany showed that yeah, maybe it would be a good idea for there to be at least ONE country where Jews were not "the eternal outsiders") but that Jewish nation should not have been established in Palestine because the Palestinians were not the ones who perpetrated the Holocaust, so why were they the ones forced to make amends for it? The Jews should've been given land in Germany instead.

Israel is doomed anyway; simple demographics say so. In the long run, the only way they can maintain Israel as a "Jewish" nation is the same way South Africa held on to its identity as a "white" nation -- by implementing a vile system of apartheid so that the minority can lord it over the majority. (Or worse, by outright genocide, but I think/hope even the Israelis wouldn't go that far.)
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Eric the .5b
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 03 Jun 2010, 15:34

Jennifer wrote:The Jews should've been given land in Germany instead.
Surrounded by all the people who rounded them up and put them in camps in the first place? Doubt they would have gone for that.

Hell, the Jews largely left Europe, and Europeans still complain about how much Jews talk about the Holocaust. Stuff would have gone ugly, fast.

Personally, I think Europe supported Israel early on because it got rid of them.
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Jake
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Jake » 03 Jun 2010, 16:03

I think we should have simply accepted them here, rather than being complicit in something akin to "oh, you poor things, here, let me provide you with somewhere to stay. Not in my house, of course, but we'll just point guns at those guys across town and make them give up a couple of bedrooms in their house for your use."
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fyodor
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by fyodor » 03 Jun 2010, 16:07

Jennifer wrote:I think the founding of Israel was a good idea (the horror of Nazi Germany showed that yeah, maybe it would be a good idea for there to be at least ONE country where Jews were not "the eternal outsiders") but that Jewish nation should not have been established in Palestine because the Palestinians were not the ones who perpetrated the Holocaust, so why were they the ones forced to make amends for it? The Jews should've been given land in Germany instead.
Well y'know Zionism dates to the 1890's, it wasn't originally a response to the Nazi's (apparently rather to anti-Jewish pogroms in Russia specifically as well as historical anti-Semitism throughout Europe generally), but of course the Holocaust added fuel to the Zionist fire and may have been what pushed the movement over the hump, as it were. But the goal of putting it in Palestine had long been established by then. It would have required a huge change of plans to put it anywhere else, whatever wisdom or lack thereof there may have been in any other particular location. And in truth, there was likely no good location!

There's no way to test historical counter-factuals withou double-blind studies using alternative universes, but I'm skeptical that the existence of Israel has done much if anything to buy security for Jews, and maybe has done more harm than good in that regard. But, we'll never know that for sure....

Anyway, just because it seemed like a good idea (and you can evidently see why it did) doesn't mean it was.

Added in response to Jake's post: Well, we did take a lot of individual Jews from Nazi Germany, including an uncle of mine. But ask any nation to give up some of its territory? There's exceptions, but the rule is it don't happen. Anyway, like I said while we cross-posted, the Zionist movement had already long made its goal a return to the Holy Land. (Though I still think it's an oversimplification to attribute this entirely to religion per se.)
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thoreau
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 03 Jun 2010, 16:16

We could just designate Utah as a place for religious groups who want to live together in the desert.
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fyodor
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by fyodor » 03 Jun 2010, 16:25

thoreau wrote:We could just designate Utah as a place for religious groups who want to live together in the desert.
Oh so you'd want a Mormon refugee camp in your backyard?

Yeah, that's what I thought.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 03 Jun 2010, 16:31

fyodor wrote:
thoreau wrote:We could just designate Utah as a place for religious groups who want to live together in the desert.
Oh so you'd want a Mormon refugee camp in your backyard?

Yeah, that's what I thought.
1) It's a big state. There's room for all of them.

2) It wouldn't be a backyard refugee camp. It would be a backyard missionary center, in which they spend two years away from their community and living in my backyard as part of a mission to convert me through round-the-clock interactions.

3) If I'm wrong on point 1, we can give the Mormons Massachusetts and they can elect Mitt Romney as their governor.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 03 Jun 2010, 16:40

As a bribe, let the Mormons rename their half Deseret.
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thoreau
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by thoreau » 03 Jun 2010, 16:43

Eric the .5b wrote:As a bribe, let the Mormons rename their half Deseret.
I'd even be willing to divide Utah into 4 states. 2 go to the Israelis, 2 go to the Mormons, and since I'm sure each group has its own internal divides that I'm not aware of each group can decide who gets which of its 2 pieces. That way each group gets a whopping 4 Senators, while also dividing themselves to minimize internal friction.

The hard part is, who gets the water rights?
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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fyodor
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by fyodor » 03 Jun 2010, 16:45

Eric the .5b wrote:As a bribe, let the Mormons rename their half Deseret.
And the other half, the Great Kosher Salt Desert?

I won't bother to name the disputed capital....
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Shem
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Shem » 03 Jun 2010, 17:09

Mo wrote:
D.A. Ridgely wrote:That's true. Just saying that if you're in a position to play two enemies off of each other, you're not aligned with either of them if you're willing to play with both. The US was just sore that Egypt bought weapons from the Soviets, even if the only reason they did it was because they got a better deal. The other problem was Nasser was very anti-colonialism and the colonial powers were all NATO countries. However, Nasser was relatively pro-US and not a commie.
None of which mattered to the more ideologically motivated red-fighters in the US, who viewed any interaction with the USSR as tainting the group doing it from the fall of Nationalist China really up through Nixon's return there. Israel was the "untainted" option, which meant that they were going to be the preferred choice (at least publicly) for the right-wing's anticommunists when push came to shove and one side had to be chosen.
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Shem
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Shem » 03 Jun 2010, 17:09

Jake wrote:I think we should have simply accepted them here, rather than being complicit in something akin to "oh, you poor things, here, let me provide you with somewhere to stay. Not in my house, of course, but we'll just point guns at those guys across town and make them give up a couple of bedrooms in their house for your use."
The connected or otherwise educated (and therefore "useful") notwithstanding, we didn't want them any more than Europe did. It was already a time of massive nativism; taking in nine million people (most of whom, it should be added, were unskilled peasants from Eastern Europe, not a popular set of immigrants at the time) would have been an impossible sell even if they weren't Jewish. The fact that they were just made it even more beyond the pale.
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Jake
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Jake » 03 Jun 2010, 17:34

Wasn't there a wave of sympathy for them after the whole "hey, look at these pictures from the death camps" thing? If there was ever a time to tell Americans "we're going to take in another wave of immigrants", that's probably the time. Impossible sell or no, I think it'd be worth losing the White House over... but that's why I don't have what it takes to get into the White House, I guess.
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by lunchstealer » 03 Jun 2010, 18:33

The first step to peace. STOP BEING A DICK. No matter what the other guy does, or how much of a dick he is, if you're a dick back, then you're a dick. If you want to be the good guy, then make sure that you're not being a dick. Then when someone else is a dick to you, then he'll be a dick and you won't.

If you are going to be a dick, don't come crying to me when someone is a dick back to you.

If you're both going to engage in an endless cycle of dick, why the fuck should I care if you live or die?
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Hugh Akston » 03 Jun 2010, 19:00

lunchstealer wrote:The first step to peace. STOP BEING A DICK. No matter what the other guy does, or how much of a dick he is, if you're a dick back, then you're a dick. If you want to be the good guy, then make sure that you're not being a dick. Then when someone else is a dick to you, then he'll be a dick and you won't.

If you are going to be a dick, don't come crying to me when someone is a dick back to you.

If you're both going to engage in an endless cycle of dick, why the fuck should I care if you live or die?
Couldn't have said it better. Prudent security and reserved self-defense is fine, but violence and thuggery only beget violence and thuggery.
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fyodor
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by fyodor » 03 Jun 2010, 19:06

There's often a thin and ambiguous line between self-defense and dickery.

Not that that makes us responsible for sorting it out. Just sayin'....
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

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Shem
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Shem » 03 Jun 2010, 19:08

Jake wrote:Wasn't there a wave of sympathy for them after the whole "hey, look at these pictures from the death camps" thing?
Not as much as one would like to assume. It was a happy time; the war was finally over. People weren't ready to think about it, and wouldn't be for a decade more, which is why you see a wave of Holocaust films and media in the mid-to-late 50s, starting with "Night and Fog" in 1955. Then there was the theatrical version of the Diary of Anne Frank, which hit Broadway in 1957 (I think) and was made into a movie in 1959, and is the start of it being a big thing in the US. Then you get "Judgment at Nuremburg," "Eichman in Jerusalem," and all the other scholarship and media that made it a lasting thing in the mind of the west.

You also have to remember that people knew what was going on in Europe while it was happening. Stories were printed in the NY Times about unspeakable atrocities on the Eastern Front being carried out against civilians, and relief workers were attempting desperately to buy Jews passage out of Germany even during the war; the problem was that nobody would take them. And that prejudice wasn't going to go away just because the war was over.
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dbcooper
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by dbcooper » 03 Jun 2010, 19:56

May I be so crass as to point out that dicks fuck pussies though?
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 03 Jun 2010, 23:07

dbcooper wrote:May I be so crass as to point out that dicks fuck pussies though?
Dicks also fuck assholes.

Isaac Bartram
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Isaac Bartram » 03 Jun 2010, 23:15

Mo wrote:
D.A. Ridgely wrote:Well, Tito was one of the founders of the so-called Non-Aligned Movement, too. And while Yugoslavia wasn't strictly speaking a part of the Soviet Bloc, it was to all intent and purposes an ally. Moreover, Cuba was "Non-Aligned," too, so I'm inclined to take the name with a grain of salt. (And not SALT I or SALT II, either.)
That's true. Just saying that if you're in a position to play two enemies off of each other, you're not aligned with either of them if you're willing to play with both. The US was just sore that Egypt bought weapons from the Soviets, even if the only reason they did it was because they got a better deal. The other problem was Nasser was very anti-colonialism and the colonial powers were all NATO countries. However, Nasser was relatively pro-US and not a commie.
I seem to recall that Nixon got something of a hero's welcome when he visited Egypt in '71 or so. Of course, Nixon is also famous for saying something like "fuck the Jews, they never vote for us anyway".

Part of my original point was that the Arab nationalists were willing to use whatever leverage they could, but much of what they were pushing had nothing to do with Islam. Remember Eisenhower wanted nothing to do with the Anglo/French/Israeli alliance that started the '56 war over Nasser's nationalization of the Suez Canal. Much of this stuff is much more complicated than many of the partisans in this conflict want it to be. Roosevelt promised the king of Saudi Arabia that the US would never approve of a Jewish sate in Palestine without consulting him, Harry Truman recognized the State of Israel instantly in 1948; cynics believe it was because he though he could overcome his polling deficit versus Dewey by capturing the Jewish vote. Of course one wonders why he also decided he needed to placate the French by supporting them in Indo-China; it's mot like there was a French vote to pander to. But, I digress.

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dbcooper
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by dbcooper » 04 Jun 2010, 04:34

Former conservative MP says what he really thinks about Israel-Palestine:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8721775.stm
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 04 Jun 2010, 06:16

dbcooper wrote:Former conservative MP says what he really thinks about Israel-Palestine:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8721775.stm
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dbcooper
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by dbcooper » 04 Jun 2010, 06:22

Ah shit, that's gay. Welcome to my hulu web experience.

Will try to find another hosted clip.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: the entirely civil and thoughtful israel thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 04 Jun 2010, 14:49

lunchstealer wrote:If you are going to be a dick, don't come crying to me when someone is a dick back to you.

If you're both going to engage in an endless cycle of dick, why the fuck should I care if you live or die?
Part of the problem may be that large parts of Israel, particularly, starts the process at "They don't care if we live or die, why shouldn't we be dicks?"

http://www.tn
r.com/article/politics/75287/operation-make-the-world-hate-us?page=0,1

It's very much like a lot of right-wing (and other) American thought regarding international approval of US policy. "The rest of the world hates us, so why not piss them off?"

EDIT: You can also make connections between those Israeli who think Israel's constantly in danger of being exterminated and those Americans who buy into dhimmitude scenarios. Except the Israelis, at least, actually experience intifadas now and then.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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