The Trayvon Martin thread

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Warren
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Warren »

Ayn_Randian wrote: I'd finally like to point out that you guys were kinda just as bad - I just noticed the thread today, but the first two pages are basically calling for Zimmerman's blood without all of the facts. Anybody care to retract or, barring that, at least rethink?
I avoided making any pronouncements. But given what we know now, I think we can be confident in the following

[*]George Zimmerman is a criminal punk. He murdered Trayvon Martin in cold blood.
[*]The police claiming that SYG meant the dead body and smoking gun wasn't enough to make an arrest is bullshit. The Racist! implications are impossible to ignore.
[*]The unreported story is how Trayvon Martin is another victim of the WOD.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by dhex »

i'm comfortable with what i've said.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Highway »

Ayn_Randian wrote:I'd finally like to point out that you guys were kinda just as bad - I just noticed the thread today, but the first two pages are basically calling for Zimmerman's blood without all of the facts. Anybody care to retract or, barring that, at least rethink?
"Kinda just as bad", and "calling for blood"? Not from what I read. I see calls for prosecution, and investigation of the PD. Not lynch mobs and guillotines. And given what seems to have been the complete abdication of responsibility for investigation by the local PD, as well as the facts that have come out since, I think that's pretty much in line with what's still called for.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Ayn_Randian »

Warren wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote: I'd finally like to point out that you guys were kinda just as bad - I just noticed the thread today, but the first two pages are basically calling for Zimmerman's blood without all of the facts. Anybody care to retract or, barring that, at least rethink?
I avoided making any pronouncements. But given what we know now, I think we can be confident in the following

[*]George Zimmerman is a criminal punk. He murdered Trayvon Martin in cold blood.
This is the kind of nonsense I am talking about. There is a witness who saw a fight, Warren. How does that square with "murdered in cold blood"?
It has the effect of making me want desperately to do the opposite of what Green Day is suggesting I should want to do. Billy Joe Whassname may have created a generation of war mongers. - Jason L
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Ayn_Randian »

Highway wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote:I'd finally like to point out that you guys were kinda just as bad - I just noticed the thread today, but the first two pages are basically calling for Zimmerman's blood without all of the facts. Anybody care to retract or, barring that, at least rethink?
"Kinda just as bad", and "calling for blood"? Not from what I read. I see calls for prosecution, and investigation of the PD. Not lynch mobs and guillotines. And given what seems to have been the complete abdication of responsibility for investigation by the local PD, as well as the facts that have come out since, I think that's pretty much in line with what's still called for.
You are right - an investigation should have been done, and the police fucked that up. However, given that one was not done, how can you call for prosecution? You have no facts to sustain one, because there was no investigation.
It has the effect of making me want desperately to do the opposite of what Green Day is suggesting I should want to do. Billy Joe Whassname may have created a generation of war mongers. - Jason L
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Mo »

The right-wing outrage machine is in full bore as well. For example, this:

Image

The kid on the right, not Martin. But I guess they all look the same.

Not to mention, so what if he has tattoos (which would have been covered up by sleeves). And the vandalism he was suspended for was for writing "WTF" on a locker. Interestingly, besides the tweet from his friend, which could be simple adolescent braggadocio, there's no evidence of a history of violence from the dead kid, but the other one was stupid enough to assault a police officer.

AR, your link is basically, "ZOMG, black people are scary!" Is that from John's blog?
Ayn_Randian wrote:This is the kind of nonsense I am talking about. There is a witness who saw a fight, Warren. How does that square with "murdered in cold blood"?
A fight that the other one appears to have started.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Ayn_Randian »

Mo wrote:The right-wing outrage machine is in full bore as well. For example, this:

Image

The kid on the right, not Martin. But I guess they all look the same.

Not to mention, so what if he has tattoos (which would have been covered up by sleeves). And the vandalism he was suspended for was for writing "WTF" on a locker. Interestingly, besides the tweet from his friend, which could be simple adolescent braggadocio, there's no evidence of a history of violence from the dead kid, but the other one was stupid enough to assault a police officer.

AR, your link is basically, "ZOMG, black people are scary!" Is that from John's blog?
Ayn_Randian wrote:This is the kind of nonsense I am talking about. There is a witness who saw a fight, Warren. How does that square with "murdered in cold blood"?
A fight that the other one appears to have started.
You're not going to get any arguments from me about the spin on the other side. Just as disgusting.

My link is not that per se, Mo, though I take your point. My point, of course, is that the Media constantly bump the Zimmerman "mugshot" photo against Martin's "eighth grade normal American kid" photo. Why?

You are right - so what if he has tattoos? However, I don't think you realize the implication of that question: If it is a "so what?" question, why not use that picture instead of the class picture photo? It's obvious: there is bias, which is my only point.

And even if Zimmerman started the fight (which, again, you have zero proof for, but I'll concede it for the sake of the argument), that still does not mean "in cold blood". What does "cold blood" mean to you, exactly?
It has the effect of making me want desperately to do the opposite of what Green Day is suggesting I should want to do. Billy Joe Whassname may have created a generation of war mongers. - Jason L
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Aresen »

All I know about this is:

1) A kid is dead. I know very little about the kid, except that he was unarmed at the time he was shot.
2) The guy who shot the kid was some kind of watchman or rent-a-cop.
3) The local police department apparently handled it very badly and did not investigate properly.
4) A lot of people who weren't there are saying stuff about it based on third-hand information.
5) Politicians are using the tragedy to advance their own agendas.

Because of 4) & 5), I have been avoiding this topic in general and intend to STFU about it.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Mo »

Ayn_Randian wrote:You are right - so what if he has tattoos? However, I don't think you realize the implication of that question: If it is a "so what?" question, why not use that picture instead of the class picture photo? It's obvious: there is bias, which is my only point.
Because the pictures of the tattoos are of an arm and a wrist. Generally pictures include a head.

My guess on the pictures comes down more to laziness than malice. Martin's parents were the ones pushing the story, so they probably picked the most angelic picture of their son to use. Zimmerman, for obvious reasons, wasn't really cooperating with the media. So they used a picture they could easily find in the public sphere, which would be on the Smoking Gun for his prior arrest. The lesson here is to have some sort of "Local Man Saves Baby" posed picture as your public sphere file photo.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Warren »

S'ok. I retract the phrase "in cold blood". He's still a punk. He stalked his victim, initiated a confrontation, and then shot him him. That's murder.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Ayn_Randian »

I am talking about the pic his gold grill. if Zimmerman's mug shot is de rigeuer, why not that one?

I buy laziness for the first day or so. not thereafter.

warren, you simply do not know the facts and are making assertions from ignorance. why?
It has the effect of making me want desperately to do the opposite of what Green Day is suggesting I should want to do. Billy Joe Whassname may have created a generation of war mongers. - Jason L
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Kolohe »

Let's be frank about one thing though. Does anybody really think in any other context (particularly one where his name were unknown) that George Zimmerman would be the White People's pick in the Racial Draft?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by GinSlinger »

Ayn_Randian wrote: I buy laziness for the first day or so. not thereafter.
Inertia or stubbornness. "The media" are loathe to alter the narrative once they've launched it.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by fyodor »

Warren wrote:S'ok. I retract the phrase "in cold blood". He's still a punk. He stalked his victim, initiated a confrontation, and then shot him him. That's murder.
We know he followed the kid when he was told in no uncertain terms by a police representative not to.

But do we really know that he initiated a confrontation?

(I haven't followed all the details, so that may very well have been established, for all I know. But from what I've seen and heard thus far, it seems like the latter may be an assumption based on the former. A not entirely unreasonable assumption, if so, but if it's an assumption, it's still an assumption.)
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by thoreau »

What does a gold grill have to do with anything?

And, Randian, if you would actually Read The Fucking Thread, you would find that the commentary on this case was mostly calmer than your post, and then we segued into whether the facts presented in an article about a different case would justify a murder charge. The knee that is jerking the most here is yours.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by fyodor »

AR, aren't you arguing from ignorance about the motives of the press every bit as much as you're accusing people here of doing regarding the facts surrounding Zimmerman's actions? I know the "offense" is different in each case, so that maybe one might argue different standards apply. But then, no one here's on Zimmerman's jury, either (or writing as a member of the press), so I don't know that we're constrained from expressing our opinions regarding what we think is most likely the case any more because of it.

Personally, I think the maximization of a "good story" is a perfectly sufficient reason to explain the displaying of the more innocent looking picture of Martin. Are they also conspiring to influence public opinion? Maybe. If so, well y'know, I'm shocked, shocked, etc.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Mo »

Ayn_Randian wrote:I am talking about the pic his gold grill. if Zimmerman's mug shot is de rigeuer, why not that one?

I buy laziness for the first day or so. not thereafter.
Is there nothing lazier than just using the same picture over an over again?
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by fyodor »

Mo wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote:I am talking about the pic his gold grill. if Zimmerman's mug shot is de rigeuer, why not that one?

I buy laziness for the first day or so. not thereafter.
Is there nothing lazier than just using the same picture over an over again?
Well I think AR is saying they're lazy but not that lazy.

But to expand on what GinSlinger said a bit, changing the picture could come across as admiting that the running of the first was a mistake, and no one (in the media or otherwise) gets their jollies from doing that.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Ayn_Randian »

thoreau, i read the thread. i saw more than a few folks calling Zimmerman a murderer with almost no facts or evidence.

but believe what thou wilt.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Shem »

Ayn_Randian wrote:Anybody care to retract or, barring that, at least rethink?
I do not.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by thoreau »

If people were to append "...or so it seems based on what I have read from multiple sources" to their posts would you be OK with the thread? I kind of thought that this was a place that didn't require or even encourage disclaimers.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by Ayn_Randian »

the "multiple sources" all lead to the same conclusion: we don't know what happened and likely never will...but he must be a murderer all the same? how can anyone say that at all?
It has the effect of making me want desperately to do the opposite of what Green Day is suggesting I should want to do. Billy Joe Whassname may have created a generation of war mongers. - Jason L
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by thoreau »

I am trying to get to the root of your objection. Is it simply that you think the conclusions cannot be justified at all? Or that they might be justified but need a few disclaimers? Or that we aren't approaching this as lawyers would? Remember, most of us aren't lawyers, nor cops, nor jurors in this case, so it is not necessary for our discussion to adhere strictly to legal procedures.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

People are strongly predisposed to jumping to conclusions, not to suspend judgment until such conclusions are supported by sufficient rational justification. The results are rarely positive but there's little point in confronting or condemning every such instance. Still, common sense is rarely as sensible as it is common. It would be a more rational world if we were better able to suspend judgment prior to investigation over all sorts of things, as any science teacher or libertarian arguing economics with the average person can attest. But we are on balance more passionate than rational as a species.

I doubt anyone here would begrudge Zimmerman a fair trial with a disinterested judge and an impartial jury. I suspect no one here thinks that expressing personal opinions on the case at this point prejudices the chances of that happening and I suspect that belief is reasonable. Criminal trials attracting national attention and widespread media coverage do engender widespread prejudice, but, on the other hand, such attention can reduce the likelihood of state misconduct as well as engender it. I don't claim the results are a wash, but it's worth noting both the negative and positive side effects of pretrial public opinion. Here, too, it would be better to suspend judgement.

Thousands of pointless crimes and injustices occur each and every day. It just happens that this one caught the public's eye.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin thread

Post by fyodor »

FWIW, before AR's entry onto the thread, I can find one post calling Zimmerman a murderer and one post that says he killed the kid for walking or living while black (or something like that, don't feel like finding it again), which might very well be interpreted as calling Zimmerman a muderer.

A lot of displeasure was expressed about what he did, but those are the only two posts that would seem to match would AR was describing. (I'm a slow reader and I may have missed something.)
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