The Road to Damascus

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Warren
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Warren » 08 Oct 2019, 23:15

Eric the .5b wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 22:47
Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 21:34
Eric the .5b wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 21:28
Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 21:21
Eric the .5b wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 20:54
Not that this hasn't been pointed out to you before
No, I don't believe it has
You believe wrongly. See the drone thread, where you blew it off as propaganda months ago.
Yeah, and it still doesn't smell right.
Ah, now you remember.

Of course, you could approach it from the other direction—what evidence, if any, is there to support your smell-/gut-based assumption that Trump has decreased use of dronemurder, given your incredulity that it's the same or greater?
I'd like to see some citation of the source of all those numbers being reported as fact.
It's dumb out there kids, keep your heads down. - JasonL

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Eric the .5b
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Eric the .5b » 08 Oct 2019, 23:40

Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 23:15
Eric the .5b wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 22:47
Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 21:34
Eric the .5b wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 21:28
Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 21:21
Eric the .5b wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 20:54
Not that this hasn't been pointed out to you before
No, I don't believe it has
You believe wrongly. See the drone thread, where you blew it off as propaganda months ago.
Yeah, and it still doesn't smell right.
Ah, now you remember.

Of course, you could approach it from the other direction—what evidence, if any, is there to support your smell-/gut-based assumption that Trump has decreased use of dronemurder, given your incredulity that it's the same or greater?
I'd like to see some citation of the source of all those numbers being reported as fact.
Reasonable. I'd certainly like to see any citations for your continued insistence that Trump must represent an improvement on this and other foreign policy issues.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Warren
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Warren » 08 Oct 2019, 23:55

I ask the chair for such time as I may consume to revise and extend my remarks

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/ ... -s-numbers
This is an op-ed. It is not reporting, though it reports as fact things not entered into evidence, if I may borrow a term of art

It opens with an acknowledgement that what is being alleged is virtually unknown.
When it comes to President Obama’s drone wars, President Trump has:

A. Ended them

B. Continued them

C. Escalated them

You’re forgiven for not knowing the answer. It’s C.
It is claimed that it's being covered up by both Republicans and Democrats
Republicans, of course, no longer criticize these sorts of things — even if they subscribe to Trump’s Obama-rebuking, “America First” isolationism. And Democrats who might take issue with unaccountable wars and civilian deaths know to do so they’d have to acknowledge Obama’s role in the mess
But of course Democrats had no trouble rebuking Trump for the deportation camps, even as Obama also led crackdowns on undocumenteds, filling the camps, and separating children from their parents. Democrats rightly admonished Trump for escalating the brutality. Aught not that argument also apply here?

Astonishingly, we're then told that this has been widely reported
You can’t, however, blame the media for this one. Refreshingly, many mainstream outlets have been reporting on this escalation for months if not years. From Foreign Policy to The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal to Fox News, The Washington Post to CNN, the issue is getting coverage.

No links to these stories are provided.
So however artfully the Trump administration has covered this up (srsly?) the news has gotten out. Therefore the problem is apathy.
Whether Americans care or not is another story.
But half the country spends their waking hours gnashing their teeth and calling for his head. And again, I don't for a second think they'd hesitate to throw Obama under the bus if it meant they had something that would stick to Trump.

I'm perfectly prepared to believe Trump has made appalling use of murderdrones. If so, he should be made to answer for it. What I'm not prepared to do is assume he's guilty until proven innocent.
It's dumb out there kids, keep your heads down. - JasonL

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Hugh Akston
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Hugh Akston » 08 Oct 2019, 23:58

Here's a handy database of US drone strikes from 2004-present. It should be noted, however, that official numbers are hard to come by since the Obama Administration's figures were widely considered unreliable, and Trump doesn't even bother to report fake numbers.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Eric the .5b » 09 Oct 2019, 05:56

Warren wrote:
08 Oct 2019, 23:55
I'm perfectly prepared to believe Trump has made appalling use of murderdrones. If so, he should be made to answer for it. What I'm not prepared to do is assume he's guilty until proven innocent.
And yet Hillary Clinton would have totally killed a whole lot more people and was obviously a worse choice. You'd assume the Blue was guiltier without even having a chance to commit the crime. However, a Red, or at least Trump, needs detailed evidence that you know we won't see for years—and for which you know damn well that he'll never actually "answer for"—or he's "innocent" and must not be disapproved of..

Fuck that.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

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Mo
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Mo » 09 Oct 2019, 06:05

It’s a quite simple pattern. Warren likes Trump more than Obama, needs reasons to justify it. Any evidence that cuts against that feeling “doesn’t smell right” and when requested for evidence, Warren deflects.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Pham Nuwen
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Pham Nuwen » 09 Oct 2019, 07:10

I just thought he secretly likes society being burned down a bit is all. *shrug*
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by nicole » 09 Oct 2019, 09:36

Morning!

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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 Oct 2019, 17:57

Props to Erdogan for moving fast before Trump's advisors can talk him into backtracking. I imagine that when Trump does call Recep back he'll get the automated voice telling him that this number is no longer in service.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Somali pirates are beholden to their hostages in a way that the USG is not." ~Dangerman

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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 Oct 2019, 20:08

“The Kurds are fighting for their land,” Trump told reporters at the White House during an event in the Roosevelt Room.

“And as somebody wrote in a very, very powerful article today, they didn’t help us in the second World War, they didn’t help us with Normandy as an example. They mentioned names of different battles. But they’re there to help us with their land and that’s a different thing.”
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Somali pirates are beholden to their hostages in a way that the USG is not." ~Dangerman

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Mo
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Mo » 10 Oct 2019, 05:54

That explains why the Trump administration has been super supportive of the Brits, Irish and Canadians.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by JD » 10 Oct 2019, 11:18

OTOH, I suppose we can expect Trump's ire to turn towards Sweden, those pepparkakor-eating neutrality monkeys.
I sort of feel like a sucker about aspiring to be intellectually rigorous when I could just go on twitter and say capitalism causes space herpes and no one will challenge me on it. - Hugh Akston

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Warren
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Warren » 10 Oct 2019, 11:28

JD wrote:
10 Oct 2019, 11:18
pepparkakor-eating neutrality monkeys.
Heh
It's dumb out there kids, keep your heads down. - JasonL

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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by lunchstealer » 12 Oct 2019, 15:57

Hugh Akston wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 17:57
Props to Erdogan for moving fast before Trump's advisors can talk him into backtracking. I imagine that when Trump does call Recep back he'll get the automated voice telling him that this number is no longer in service.
new phone who dis
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Hugh Akston » 14 Oct 2019, 14:27

The U.S. is poised to impose sanctions on Turkey as soon as Monday in response to the nation’s advance into Syria, according to people familiar with the matter, days after President Donald Trump cleared the way for Turkey to launch its offensive by pulling American forces from the area.

The initial round of penalties would most likely be aimed at a wide range of individuals and was prepared for Trump’s approval, according to one of the people. The departments of State, Defense and Treasury worked over the weekend to draft the terms, the people said.

The Trump administration is leaving open the option of penalties aimed at military transactions, arms exports and energy shipments to the Turkish military, two people said. All of the people spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
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Aresen
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Aresen » 14 Oct 2019, 14:31

Hugh Akston wrote:
14 Oct 2019, 14:27
The U.S. is poised to impose sanctions on Turkey as soon as Monday in response to the nation’s advance into Syria, according to people familiar with the matter, days after President Donald Trump cleared the way for Turkey to launch its offensive by pulling American forces from the area.

The initial round of penalties would most likely be aimed at a wide range of individuals and was prepared for Trump’s approval, according to one of the people. The departments of State, Defense and Treasury worked over the weekend to draft the terms, the people said.

The Trump administration is leaving open the option of penalties aimed at military transactions, arms exports and energy shipments to the Turkish military, two people said. All of the people spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter.
Is that this morning's policy or this afternoon's policy?
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 14 Oct 2019, 14:36

Aresen wrote:
14 Oct 2019, 14:31
Hugh Akston wrote:
14 Oct 2019, 14:27
The U.S. is poised to impose sanctions on Turkey as soon as Monday in response to the nation’s advance into Syria, according to people familiar with the matter, days after President Donald Trump cleared the way for Turkey to launch its offensive by pulling American forces from the area.

The initial round of penalties would most likely be aimed at a wide range of individuals and was prepared for Trump’s approval, according to one of the people. The departments of State, Defense and Treasury worked over the weekend to draft the terms, the people said.

The Trump administration is leaving open the option of penalties aimed at military transactions, arms exports and energy shipments to the Turkish military, two people said. All of the people spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter.
Is that this morning's policy or this afternoon's policy?
We're not sure if Trump was eating an Egg McMuffin or a Quarter Pounder at the time. We'll check for wrappers on the Oval Office floor later today and get back to you.

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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Mo » 14 Oct 2019, 14:59

I’m not a “Trump is a Russian asset” truther, but the fact that Trump made a situation where we’re pulling our nukes out of Turkey makes me more open to the idea.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Aresen
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Aresen » 14 Oct 2019, 15:50

Just because Trump is not a Russian asset doesn't mean he isn't an American liability.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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thoreau
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by thoreau » 14 Oct 2019, 16:14

Mo wrote:
14 Oct 2019, 14:59
I’m not a “Trump is a Russian asset” truther, but the fact that Trump made a situation where we’re pulling our nukes out of Turkey makes me more open to the idea.
Trump does not knowingly take anyone's orders. But he clearly listens to some people more than others, and if those people whisper into his ear long enough, they can eventually cajole him into a mess that will work out better for them than for others. We'll never find a video of him agreeing to an explicit quid pro quo with Russia, but he knows that Russia helped him in 2016, he's told them that he has no problem with it, and he's willing to listen to them over his own intelligence agencies. He probably believes that they helped him because "Vladimir knows a real winner when he sees one, and he's probably even a bit afraid of me," but that just means he's capable of falling for his own bullshit.

I doubt that anyone said in 2015 "OK, tovarischi, this year we get Pavel Manafort to talk to him and then in Year 5 of Plan US relationship with Turkey crumbles." I'm sure it was more like this:

2015: "Huh, the idiot who does real estate deals with us is running. Well, play nice with him. He's useful. He'll never win, but we want to keep doing real estate deals with him."
Early 2016: "Wow, he's still polling well. This will be fun while it lasts."
Mid-2016: "Shit, never thought he'd get this far. Well, let's use him to troll Clinton. We fucking hate her."
November 2016: "Shit, now what? Well, the world's biggest idiot is in the world's most useful office..."
2017-2019: "I mean, we can't actually steer this ship, but we can at least encourage him to note listen to the Americans trying to steer it."
September 2019: "Hey, Recep, why don't you see if you can get him to slow the US response while we help you expand your lines in Syria."
October 2019: "Huh, one alliance destroyed and another tottering. That was an unexpected but welcome return on investment. Well, if you spend enough time encouraging an idiot to follow his worst instincts, eventually something useful will come of it."
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by JD » 14 Oct 2019, 16:29

I also think that a large contributing factor may be that Trump is convinced he is always the smartest person in the room, so if all the experts say "Do X", he will do Y instead. He's clearly smarter than any of the experts, so why would he just listen to them?
I sort of feel like a sucker about aspiring to be intellectually rigorous when I could just go on twitter and say capitalism causes space herpes and no one will challenge me on it. - Hugh Akston

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thoreau
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by thoreau » 14 Oct 2019, 16:39

JD wrote:
14 Oct 2019, 16:29
I also think that a large contributing factor may be that Trump is convinced he is always the smartest person in the room, so if all the experts say "Do X", he will do Y instead. He's clearly smarter than any of the experts, so why would he just listen to them?
Sure, but there are plenty of things that are Not X. He favors Y instead of W or Z because Vladimir, who respects him more than any of those experts do, was pointing out that the intelligence experts are wrong about the downsides of Y. Plus, Recep, a great guy who has worked with him on real estate, also thinks it's a great idea.

Relationships matter. Russia has cultivated a relationship with him. It probably isn't a relationship like in the movies, where a handler meets with Trump and says "Do it or the files are released! The people we both answer to are not to be trifled with!" But it is a relationship, and Trump is a pretty manipulable idiot.

Frankly, if US civil servants were willing to flout rules and kiss his ass in ways that go against every norm, and send the boss pictures of them toasting the bride at a wedding in a Trump property, the CIA could probably manipulate him at least as well as Russia can. But, while these people may not be full of ethical considerations, they've spent decades building careers around doing things one way, and they're still not quite believing that they'll be able to get away with doing the opposite of that.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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Painboy
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Painboy » 14 Oct 2019, 16:40

This is what Rand is saying about it.

I think this is one of the big reasons he has cozied up to Trump. He seems to have had a lot influence on Trump's foreign policy when it comes to these conflicts. Whether that's good or bad that remains to be seen.

This is an interesting point if true.
The other interesting thing that people don't mention is all the Kurds aren't the same. The Iraqi Kurds actually are cooperating with Turkey to turn in Kurdish Workers Party officials that they see as terrorists. So the Iraqi Kurds are actually turning over some of these Kurds that allied with the Syrians. So, realize that all the Kurds aren't the same on every side of every border.
He also actually opposes Trump's latest Saudi mission.
TODD: Very quickly, the president at the same time this week quietly sent more troops to Saudi Arabia and claims that the Saudis are going to pay for those troops. Are you comfortable with the U.S. military being treated almost like a mercenary force for the Saudis?

PAUL: I'm not. And in fact, I would withhold troops and arms from the Saudis until we see better behavior.

I think that our arms are uniquely belong to the American people and that we shouldn't be sending them to the Saudis until we see a change in their behavior. But it's inconsistent to say we're not going to be there for endless, senseless wars and then to have them in Saudi Arabia.

One thing that bin Laden said motivated him, it's not a justification, obviously, it was terrible and he got what he deserved, but one of the things he said that motivated him were troops in what they considered to be their holy land. And so I think having troops in Saudi Arabia becomes a magnet for all the crazy jihadists around the world to motivate them to attack again.

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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 14 Oct 2019, 18:48

Clearly, the narrative that the Kurds are a single, peacefully co-existing and politically unified people is overly simplistic. As a staunchly conservative friend of mine posted on FB recently, they are and have been living in a diaspora in that region for, well, at least since European colonization, and they are hardly unified in their politics. About the only think you can say about the Kurds without qualification is that they'd all like their own homeland, preferably with oil and without anyone else governing them so that they could do what all ethnically or tribally related peoples have done since time immemorial; namely, start fighting among themselves. There's little likelihood of that happening in the foreseeable future, so my best case damage control would be to offer our bona fide allies among the Kurds safe passage and documented immigrant status in the U.S. as we did with as many South Vietnamese we could reasonably save. I loathe Trump, but I hope he keeps withdrawing troops from Syria and then starts the same process throughout the Middle East. I know it won't happen and I know if it did happen it would leave a huge geopolitical power vacuum that would result in wholesale carnage throughout the region, but it's either that or play Pax Americana until what's left of our lives, our fortunes and our not-so-sacred honor has been spent.

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Kolohe
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Re: The Road to Damascus

Post by Kolohe » 17 Oct 2019, 11:10

We are now officially bombing our own (former) stuff


OIR Spokesman Col. Myles B. Caggins III

Verified account

On Oct. 16, after all #Coalition personnel and essential tactical equipment departed, two Coalition F-15Es successfully conducted a pre-planned precision airstrike at the Lafarge Cement Factory to destroy an ammunition cache and reduce the facility’s military usefulness.

3:06 PM - 16 Oct 2019
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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