Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by nicole » 26 Oct 2017, 11:24

I think a lifetime of pro-procreation, anti-abortion messaging has more than a minuscule effect on birthrates.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Warren » 26 Oct 2017, 11:30

JasonL wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 11:17
What's the effect of that really though? The sentiment is awful, but aid is a) still given and b) a miniscule drop in the bucket affecting overall birth rates.
I think the point is that the medieval doctrines of the church have been a major contributor to the massive poverty that has ensnared sub Saharan Africa. A problem which remains insolvable despite generations of reform efforts and the success of India and China as examples. And that challenging those doctrines has been taken off the table.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 26 Oct 2017, 11:34

JasonL wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 11:10
Your argument is Pat Robertson is closer to power than Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders? If I add E Warren does that help?
As you may have noticed, Donald Trump doesn't actually have any beliefs except those that relate to Donald Trump.

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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Aresen » 26 Oct 2017, 11:51

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 11:34
JasonL wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 11:10
Your argument is Pat Robertson is closer to power than Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders? If I add E Warren does that help?
As you may have noticed, Donald Trump doesn't actually have any beliefs except those that relate to Donald Trump.
To paraphrase (I forget who): "The way Donald Trump believes in himself is refreshing in this age in which so many people have no God at all."
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by dead_elvis » 26 Oct 2017, 14:16

Just watched The Hippopotamus last night (have not read the book). Seems pertinent to the thread. Comes across like Fry apologizing for strident atheism, while at the same time (IMO) not soft pedaling it's rightness and morality. It wraps up like maybe the moral of the story is that debunking the miracles was mean spirited, but I believe a thoughtful viewer will recall on the other side of the ledger the harm done to the boy and others by everyone choosing to believe, and I think there is just no comparison.

(Thoroughly enjoyable movie, it's on Netflix)
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by JasonL » 26 Oct 2017, 14:35

Where I find myself in agreement with various athiest activists (I won't attempt to categorize them), is the thumb on the scale in favor of the sanctioned mythology. Yes, atheists can be actual dbags when they say things, but a non trivial part of the perception of dbaggery is that I'm not supposed to blink when someone makes some kind of claim about moral behavior or the good life or whatever saying essentially "because sky fairy said so". It should, at a minimum, be neutral for me to say "sky fairy is not a good argument", but it isn't seen that way. I'm supposed to respect the sky fairy story but there is no obligation to respect my counter narrative. So, yeah, people are acting out in response to that, but also they are kinda right that it's absurd to respect only the special approved sky fairy stories as serious arguments.

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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Aresen » 26 Oct 2017, 14:51

JasonL wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 14:35
Where I find myself in agreement with various athiest activists (I won't attempt to categorize them), is the thumb on the scale in favor of the sanctioned mythology. Yes, atheists can be actual dbags when they say things, but a non trivial part of the perception of dbaggery is that I'm not supposed to blink when someone makes some kind of claim about moral behavior or the good life or whatever saying essentially "because sky fairy said so". It should, at a minimum, be neutral for me to say "sky fairy is not a good argument", but it isn't seen that way. I'm supposed to respect the sky fairy story but there is no obligation to respect my counter narrative. So, yeah, people are acting out in response to that, but also they are kinda right that it's absurd to respect only the special approved sky fairy stories as serious arguments.
Cosign.

I have seen a lot of people get very bent out of shape by, say an atheist billboard, but no-one says fuck all about the hundreds of religious billboards. If a business owner puts "Jesus is my Lord" on his door, no one blinks; if an atheist were to put up "There is no god", the 'War on Religion' types wouldn't shut up for months.

I think atheists should be more 'in your face' when dealing with public religiosity.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 26 Oct 2017, 23:09

The nugget of my view in theological imperative behind whatever we should do:


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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Eric the .5b » 27 Oct 2017, 04:06

nicole wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 08:36
My beef is with what the Baffler article says that Alexander agrees with, that the NAs were just mouthing platitudes that their audience of educated Blues already agreed with, like "there is no god." That's wrong as an empirical matter; they say things like "there is no god, and it matters," "it's child abuse to teach children religion," and "elective infant circumcision should be illegal." None of those things are platitudes everyone agrees with, even among educated high-culture Blues. The NAs don't actually share a fundamental belief with many of those people at all.
Ah, I get you.

I'd largely agree, except on one point. The fundamental belief, that there is no God/god/gods/whatever, is totally shared by the NAs, many left-of-center folks, and even non-lefty folks like several of us here. The conclusions, policy preferences, and mutual reactions those groups reach are different for reasons separate from that basic, shared idea. The ideas of some old academic toffs whose leftism (if even present) is very British and 1970s in nature just won't mesh with your average atheist US liberal's worldview, and in fact they'll come across badly.

I'm not saying you can't be a bigoted asshole and hook into the left or even US liberalism, but you have to be less blatantly proud of being a bigoted asshole than these guys are.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Warren » 27 Oct 2017, 11:12

Aresen wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 14:51
JasonL wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 14:35
Where I find myself in agreement with various athiest activists (I won't attempt to categorize them), is the thumb on the scale in favor of the sanctioned mythology. Yes, atheists can be actual dbags when they say things, but a non trivial part of the perception of dbaggery is that I'm not supposed to blink when someone makes some kind of claim about moral behavior or the good life or whatever saying essentially "because sky fairy said so". It should, at a minimum, be neutral for me to say "sky fairy is not a good argument", but it isn't seen that way. I'm supposed to respect the sky fairy story but there is no obligation to respect my counter narrative. So, yeah, people are acting out in response to that, but also they are kinda right that it's absurd to respect only the special approved sky fairy stories as serious arguments.
Cosign.

I have seen a lot of people get very bent out of shape by, say an atheist billboard, but no-one says fuck all about the hundreds of religious billboards. If a business owner puts "Jesus is my Lord" on his door, no one blinks; if an atheist were to put up "There is no god", the 'War on Religion' types wouldn't shut up for months.

I think atheists should be more 'in your face' when dealing with public religiosity.
Ditto. It's as bad on the inner personal level. If you're in conversation with someone you don't know very well, they feel totally comfortable saying things like "It's God's will" and get all offended (or even fauxfended) if you don't accept that.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 27 Oct 2017, 12:35

Whatever the ethical, let alone theological issues regarding procreation may be, if Gapminder (yeah, yeah, terrible name and TED talks, too; otoh, Rosling) is correct about the correlation between income and family size, it doesn't seem to matter what any organized religion says about birth control once a certain level of affluence is achieved. I'll note in further support of this that a significant majority of the American Roman Catholic population either actively disagrees or ignores Rome's position on birth control.

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Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by JasonL » 27 Oct 2017, 12:41

My overall feeling as well. Pre industrial poor countries hive high birth rates and rich countries don’t full stop.

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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by nicole » 27 Oct 2017, 12:51

But even in rich countries there are differences in fertility, both actual and intended, by religion: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2723861/

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... us-groups/

Christians' birth rate was 30% higher than unaffiliateds' birth rate in that Pew data. Mormons' birth rate was twice as high as unaffiliateds'.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 27 Oct 2017, 13:37

nicole wrote:
27 Oct 2017, 12:51
But even in rich countries there are differences in fertility, both actual and intended, by religion: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2723861/

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... us-groups/

Christians' birth rate was 30% higher than unaffiliateds' birth rate in that Pew data. Mormons' birth rate was twice as high as unaffiliateds'.
I don't doubt religious belief is a factor, but I suspect it's at most a secondary or tertiary consideration for most of them (well, maybe not Mormons) and that irrespective of religious beliefs they both wanted and could afford a larger family, and the delta, in any case, is one child. I know several families with five or more kids and, yes, they are all Roman Catholics. But they're exceptions to the rule in the West.

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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Dangerman » 29 Oct 2017, 10:51

Tangent: My org, and the state program we are contracted to, specify that we encourage marriage as a positive contributor to economic independence (as opposed to dependence on public assistance).

No word on birth control, but pregnancy is the reason childless people become dependent on the state.

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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Jennifer » 31 Oct 2017, 13:13

On the anniversary of the Reformation, the Daily Caller assures us that "Martin Luther is probably in hell."

http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/31/marti ... y-in-hell/
One might imagine that to write an article with this title is presumptuous in the extreme. But I do not make this assertion based on the wicked acts of Martin Luther — his division of Christendom, his hatred of the Jews, his licensing of polygamy, his accusations of adultery against the Savior, his railing, his curses or his insults — but upon the simple principle of faith alone. For faith has the power to wipe out any sin by the precious blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but without faith we are lost.

It may surprise many readers to know that the Catholic Church teaches, as Dogma, justification by faith alone. She teaches this in the sense that she holds it to be impossible for anyone to be rendered acceptable in the sight of God unless and until they receive the supernatural virtue of living faith.

Furthermore, she teaches that nothing done before receiving this virtue can in any way merit justification in the sight of God nor can anything done apart from faith do so. What then is faith? Considered in itself faith is defined by the Catholic Church as “a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source by which assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our Creator and Lord.” It is for this reason that Blessed John Henry Newman felt able to say, “Protestants, generally speaking, have not faith.”

A shocking statement, you might suppose, but it follows from the definition of faith just given. If the reason that we believe what God has revealed is that God can neither deceive nor be deceived, then knowingly to doubt or deny a single proposition thus revealed is implicitly to deny that God has spoken at all and so to divest oneself of the saving virtue of faith. So that we might know what God has revealed and assent to it upon the strength of God’s own veracity, it is necessary that the means by which His revelation is conducted to us be endowed with infallibility. The Church teaches that every statement consigned to writing by the human authors of scripture, in the sense they intended when they wrote these books, is inspired by God and free from all error.

Nevertheless, for us to believe the saving words of this holy text on God’s authority, we must also have a divinely guaranteed interpreter. Otherwise, the one who receives Holy Scripture will be believing nothing more than his own interpretation guided by his own speculations; he will not have faith and he will remain in his sins. Catholics therefore “accept Sacred Scripture according to that sense which Holy Mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures” nor do they ever “receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers.” To stand alone without this authority is to have faith in oneself alone.

Martin Luther stood upon two principles: justification by faith alone and the Bible alone as the principle of true doctrine. The second of these principles betrays the fact that what he meant by faith is not the faith the Church proclaims, not the life-giving message of Jesus Christ, but a figment of his own invention. No doubt this is why he felt able to remove books from scripture itself and to falsify his translation of St. Paul’s greatest epistle with no better excuse than “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so.”

While we pray for God’s mercy upon Luther, we must conclude, in the words of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, that whosoever “knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 31 Oct 2017, 17:34

Nice to see that ultramontanism isn't dead. Actually, I have friends who would wholeheartedly agree with the quote. Then again, these folks get together to read Papal encyclicals. Everyone needs a hobby.

The epistle in question is James, which Luther called, though he later retracted the line, an "epistle of straw" and the especially offending passage was "faith without works is dead." Contemporary Protestant and Roman Catholic (and Orthodox) Christians now usually distinguish between the doctrine of justification (justification by faith alone) and the doctrine of sanctification, an abbreviated version of which is that those who are saved by faith are, as a result, disposed to "saintly" works. Read as such, there is no consistency problem with James and other New Testament books, the question of authenticity aside. Again, most Biblical scholars today, irrespective of whatever any particular organized religion claims, are dubious about many of the Epistles, for example, the almost certain falsehood of the claim of many of them to have been written by Paul. (Biblical literalists have the same problem insisting that all of the first five books of the Old Testament were written by Moses, who, assuming him to have been an actual historical figure, nonetheless probably couldn't have written about his own funeral in Deuteronomy.)

Of course, as with the split between the Western and Eastern Church, the underlying and, I think, real grounds were political, not theological, and if Luther hadn't been the poster boy for Protestantism, someone else soon enough would have been. (BTW, as understood by Luther, "protestant" literally means to stand for something, not to stand against it.) Had the Roman Catholic Church not later held as a matter of dogma the claim of Papal Infallibility (when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals) and gone on to claim as dogma the Immaculate Conception and Bodily Assumption of Mary, there would be little if any theological dispute among the Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican Communions today, the issue of Anglican Orders aside.

As was said about Logical Positivism, most of these theological disputes were a case of storming a castle and discovering it was empty.

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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Ellie » 01 Apr 2018, 12:40

Sitting here at work overanalyzing Easter hymns. "Christ is alive! Let Christians sing! The cross stands empty to the sky!" Well, that's a very nice image except all it means is they moved his dead body somewhere else a couple days ago.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Warren » 01 Apr 2018, 14:11

Everything about religion, all religions, appears bizarre from the outside looking in. None more so than the pride and reverence with which Christians venerate the cross.
One of the most ghastly torture/execution methods ever put into practice. It is a thing that should be looked upon with more horror than the gallows is, most especially by Christians given its role in the Savior's narrative.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Aresen » 01 Apr 2018, 18:14

Warren wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 14:11
Everything about religion, all religions, appears bizarre from the outside looking in. None more so than the pride and reverence with which Christians venerate the cross.
One of the most ghastly torture/execution methods ever put into practice. It is a thing that should be looked upon with more horror than the gallows is, most especially by Christians given its role in the Savior's narrative.
I think you are missing the point, Warren. For Xtians, Christ's horrific suffering was the expiation of the sins of all mankind (at least, the ones who worship him.) They "know" he suffered a horrible death, but he willingly did so for all, which is why they venerate the symbol of that suffering.

This is made more explicit by Catholics and their crucifixes, where Christ is shown in the midst of his suffering.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Warren » 01 Apr 2018, 19:53

Aresen wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 18:14
Warren wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 14:11
Everything about religion, all religions, appears bizarre from the outside looking in. None more so than the pride and reverence with which Christians venerate the cross.
One of the most ghastly torture/execution methods ever put into practice. It is a thing that should be looked upon with more horror than the gallows is, most especially by Christians given its role in the Savior's narrative.
I think you are missing the point, Warren. For Xtians, Christ's horrific suffering was the expiation of the sins of all mankind (at least, the ones who worship him.) They "know" he suffered a horrible death, but he willingly did so for all, which is why they venerate the symbol of that suffering.

This is made more explicit by Catholics and their crucifixes, where Christ is shown in the midst of his suffering.
Yes exactly. That's insane.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Jennifer » 01 Apr 2018, 19:56

When I forgive those who've done me wrong, I do so without demanding someone be tortured to death first.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 01 Apr 2018, 20:51

My question is, whose God? Your white man's God?

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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Number 6 » 01 Apr 2018, 21:07

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
01 Apr 2018, 20:51
My question is, whose God? Your white man's God?
Trevor Noah ftw.
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Re: Have you accepted Nothing as your lord and savior?

Post by Mo » 01 Apr 2018, 21:24

Here’s the most insane justification of it being true ever. Why would people lie? Which basically means every religion is true.

https://www.redstate.com/tladuke/2018/0 ... lternative./
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