Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

Warren wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 11:29 Your logic is flawed
I was referencing your flawed logic, so I suppose that was unavoidably true.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

Warren, are you even a member of the LP?
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Warren »

Eric the .5b wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 11:33 Warren, are you even a member of the LP?
I am. I've even run for office as a Libertarian. Pretty much a paper candidate though.
I haven't been active in it since '12
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Warren wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 11:54
Eric the .5b wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 11:33 Warren, are you even a member of the LP?
I am. I've even run for office as a Libertarian. Pretty much a paper candidate though.
I haven't been active in it since '12
At least be an active member before you demand everyone around support your feckless parliamentary procedure club.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Aresen »

Warren, perhaps you see Biden* and Trump as equally bad. I don't and neither do many of the rest of us. I dislike Biden and think he will do many bad things, but Trump has been much worse IMHO. That was the point of the Heinlein quote I gave above.

At this time, I think it is more important to be rid of Trump - his lawlessness, his incivility, his wrecking, and his egomania - than to do libertarian virtue signalling.

*I still think Biden will not make it to 2024 and we will see the Harris administration.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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We have a contest between the most centrist Blue imaginable and the most insane Red imaginable. If we don't reward the Blues and punish the Reds our system will absorb a lesson that we can't ever recover from.
" Columbus wasn’t a profile in courage or brilliance despite the odds, he was a dumb motherfucker that got lucky. Oddly, that makes him the perfect talisman for the Trump era."
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Warren wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 10:43
If the price America has to pay to get rid of Trump is European level Social Welfare programs and a litany of "reforms" I'll be screaming in opposition to, well, I think it's still worth it.
You'd cut a great road though our freedoms to get at the Devil?
The idea of "social welfare programs" bothers you more than everything else Trump has done? Would you feel differently if, instead of "forced hysterectomies on women inmates of our concentration camps," people talked about "tax-funded contraceptive healthcare for poor folks who don't even pay into the system?"
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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This sort of idiocy is how you get people defecting from libertarianism to Team Blue.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Eric the .5b wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 12:49 This sort of idiocy is how you get people defecting from libertarianism to Team Blue.
I'm trying to recall the name of the libertarian dipshit -- an actual party guy, not merely "random dude with a blog"; I think his name was Arvin Something -- who said an openly white supremacist candidate is preferable to someone looking to expand the welfare state. But, if angry white guys are going to express outrage over the thought of Their Tax Dollars™ going to poor people (many of whom have dark skins) ... well, the per-inmate cost of running those concentration camps is a FUCK of a lot more expensive than if we just gave those inmates some food stamps and a Section 8 housing voucher. Especially when the pay and pensions of the sadists running those camps are taken into account. And Zod only knows how much that off-facility doctor is charging for all those hysterectomies he's been doing....
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by lunchstealer »

When the tribe that descended into postmodernist lunacy isn't the Left, shit needs a corrective and Team Blue Druid is not going to get the job done. I voted LP almost exclusively for years (except Bob "Baby Doc's PR Guy" Barr), but I'll go back to ballot access voting when there's not a basic-precepts-of-rationality vote to be made.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

Jennifer wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 12:58
Eric the .5b wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 12:49 This sort of idiocy is how you get people defecting from libertarianism to Team Blue.
I'm trying to recall the name of the libertarian dipshit -- an actual party guy, not merely "random dude with a blog"; I think his name was Arvin Something -- who said an openly white supremacist candidate is preferable to someone looking to expand the welfare state. But, if angry white guys are going to express outrage over the thought of Their Tax Dollars™ going to poor people (many of whom have dark skins) ... well, the per-inmate cost of running those concentration camps is a FUCK of a lot more expensive than if we just gave those inmates some food stamps and a Section 8 housing voucher. Especially when the pay and pensions of the sadists running those camps are taken into account. And Zod only knows how much that off-facility doctor is charging for all those hysterectomies he's been doing....
It's almost as if it isn't actually about the scope and power of the government, much less its abuses, for some people.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer »

Eric the .5b wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 13:21
Jennifer wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 12:58
Eric the .5b wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 12:49 This sort of idiocy is how you get people defecting from libertarianism to Team Blue.
I'm trying to recall the name of the libertarian dipshit -- an actual party guy, not merely "random dude with a blog"; I think his name was Arvin Something -- who said an openly white supremacist candidate is preferable to someone looking to expand the welfare state. But, if angry white guys are going to express outrage over the thought of Their Tax Dollars™ going to poor people (many of whom have dark skins) ... well, the per-inmate cost of running those concentration camps is a FUCK of a lot more expensive than if we just gave those inmates some food stamps and a Section 8 housing voucher. Especially when the pay and pensions of the sadists running those camps are taken into account. And Zod only knows how much that off-facility doctor is charging for all those hysterectomies he's been doing....
It's almost as if it isn't actually about the scope and power of the government, much less its abuses, for some people.
My friend Windypundit -- writing early in the Obama administration when he (and I) optimistically and wrongly thought "Racism in America isn't 'over' now, but we're over the hump; the worst is now behind us and henceforth we'll mostly see improvements" -- discussed a certain dark strain of libertarianism (or rather, a dark type of person attracted to it) -- they like "small government libertarianism" NOT because of any small-government principles -- most of them are MORE than happy to support big government programs to their liking -- their beef with the government boils down to "The government now is no longer actively oppressing certain people I want to see oppressed, and sometimes even tries to help said people." You know: the ones who will rant against big government spending, but the only examples they ever bring up are "welfare"; the ones who rant against unjust government actions but the only example is "affirmative action"; the ones who ranted against Obamacare but their main complaints were the parts intended to help women ....
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Warren wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 10:43 You'd cut a great road though our freedoms to get at the Devil?
Hang on... did you misquote this on purpose?
William Roper: “So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!”

Sir Thomas More: “Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?”

William Roper: “Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!”

Sir Thomas More: “Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!”
'Cause if you want to invoke the importance of protecting the rule of law (which is what this quote is all about), I don't think it's going to go particularly well for your position in this argument.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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ICE chose to deport a key witness in an investigation into the sexual abuse of concentration-camp inmates.

At least no tax money was spent on any social-welfare programs attempting to HELP people like her, though; THAT would make a travesty of freedom, human rights and all decent things this country once pretend to stand for. It might even make Trump qualify as "ever-so-slightly worse than the presidential status quo." Remember: real libertarians know if the government is funding any touchy-feely stuff, it's only okay if the touching and feeling is non-consensual.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

Just to expand in a different direction—if it doesn't matter how we vote, why give a shit about ballot access for third parties?

If it doesn't matter that Trump is openly trying to sabotage the vote, why give a shit about ballot access?

And beyond ballot access, what exactly has the LP ever accomplished? Did any of that happen this century?
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

Eric the .5b wrote: 15 Sep 2020, 16:55 And beyond ballot access, what exactly has the LP ever accomplished? Did any of that happen this century?
They give you a way to say "I'm not just a Republican who likes pot" without having to ever support a librul.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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JFG drink a juice box and take a nap.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Poll Finds U.S. Allies Overwhelmingly (and Accurately) View Trump Coronavirus Response as “Bad”

Turns out, it’s not just non-Trump-y Americans who are disappointed in how their country has responded to the coronavirus—the rest of the world is even more appalled. A new, 13-nation survey by the Pew Research Center out this week found that belief in the U.S. and its leadership—which nosedived after the election of Donald Trump—has essentially fallen off a cliff as Trump has overseen America’s cataclysmic response to the pandemic. Pew found that traditional American allies now held a lower opinion of the U.S. than at any point over the past two decades. ... Nearly 1,300 people died yesterday in the U.S. from COVID-19. That’s almost as many that have died, in total, in Germany since the outbreak began. There were also 40,000—and perhaps even 50,000—new cases yesterday in the U.S. The number of U.S. cases is trending down at the moment, which might feel like a relief, but it’s only a relief relatively speaking; it’s certainly not success. That’s a distinction that is apparently pretty clear if you’re not in the Fox News bubble.

The pandemic has, in essence, proved what the rest of the world suspected all along of Trump—that he can’t be trusted to “do the right thing,” even notionally. The elevated plateau of public trust in the era from 2008 until, oh, say, Nov. 8, 2016, we’ll call the Obama plateau.

As a point of reference, it’s not just that the rest of the world doesn’t trust Trump in absolute terms; they trust him less to do the right thing than freaking Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

The only opinions that matter are those of 'Mericans who don't live near salt water. Those sissy Europeans aren't 'Mericans. 'Mericans don't want to be governed by coastal elitists from hedonistic places like New York City. They want decent God-fearing rulers who believe in traditional marriage between one man and one woman at a time, plus a pr0n star on the side.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer »

I remember when Bush was re-elected in 2004, some British or European publication had a cover story with the headline "How can {exact number of votes Bush got] Americans be so dumb?" Then we voted for Obama, and the world was so relieved to have Bush out of the saddle that he got a Nobel just for not being Bush.

But THEN, only eight years later, we chose Trump (even though it can truthfully be said that the majority of voters actually chose Clinton). Tje rest of the world might give us one bad-choice mulligan, but two is a lot more doubtful. And I'm equally doubtful America will regain its former prestige on the world stage, either.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

Eh, that might be going too far. Our prestige in the world stage has always stemmed from nothing more than having the preeminent military, and that hasn't changed, yet.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Kolohe »

Eric the .5b wrote: 16 Sep 2020, 12:34 Eh, that might be going too far. Our prestige in the world stage has always stemmed from nothing more than having the preeminent military, and that hasn't changed, yet.
Also from having more money than Davey Crockett.
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Jennifer
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer »

Eric the .5b wrote: 16 Sep 2020, 12:34 Eh, that might be going too far. Our prestige in the world stage has always stemmed from nothing more than having the preeminent military
We were also admired for stuff like our scientific and technological prowess, and we were the type of country that would send aid to other countries in case of disasters, rather than the type of country which can't or won't even help its own people when disaster strikes. Canada has been taking advantage of America's insane anti-immigrant hatred by making a play for talented immigrants who would otherwise have enriched America rather than our northern neighbor.... IIRC it was Churchill who once made the joke "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing ... after they've tried everything else" but even THAT is no longer the case: who can currently count on Trump and the US government to do the right thing at all?
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

Jennifer wrote: 16 Sep 2020, 18:48
Eric the .5b wrote: 16 Sep 2020, 12:34 Eh, that might be going too far. Our prestige in the world stage has always stemmed from nothing more than having the preeminent military
We were also admired for stuff like our scientific and technological prowess, and we were the type of country that would send aid to other countries in case of disasters, rather than the type of country which can't or won't even help its own people when disaster strikes. Canada has been taking advantage of America's insane anti-immigrant hatred by making a play for talented immigrants who would otherwise have enriched America rather than our northern neighbor.... IIRC it was Churchill who once made the joke "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing ... after they've tried everything else" but even THAT is no longer the case: who can currently count on Trump and the US government to do the right thing at all?
If they need us for anything, they'll grit their teeth and appeal to us.

It's never been because they liked or trusted us. That's not how international politics works. They'll be leery of dealing with us for awhile, and that will cost us on the margins. It won't change that whenever Europe wants to bomb some brown-skinned people or keep the Russians at bay, they'll almost always want to bring us in on it.

(It's too much to hope for that Europe will commit to its own defense.)
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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By and large, foreigners did like and trust the US to a large extent. They like and trust it much less than they used to.
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