Masculinity, so fragile

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thoreau
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by thoreau » 14 Feb 2018, 09:10

I used to sympathize with Peterson, back when the only thing that I knew about him was his opinion on pronouns.

Now? He's not worth my attention. Go away.
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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 14 Feb 2018, 09:18

JasonL wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 09:05
nicole wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 08:33
JasonL wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 07:03
What’s a representative thing of Petersen I could read to quickly get a gist of his actual perspective.
Part of the problem is you mostly have to watch him, not read him.

I seriously recommend the piece I posted upthread.
I read it. Aren't people taking issue with the characterizations in there though?
Here? No one else read it. I originally got the link from folks on Twitter who are often critical of Peterson-critical takes but thought this was more accurate.
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 14 Feb 2018, 09:54

JasonL wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 07:07
I think it naive to believe that the party who can inflict harm and the party who historically can’t see the reality of underlying threat the same way. Lots of people may think about suing as resolution to conflict but put those two people in a car or away from public eyes and ask if a reasonable woman wouldn’t be at some level concerned about sexual violence.
Reasonable women are probably always at some level concerned about sexual violence. If you were responding to my remark, I was taking issue with Peterson's notion that physical violence remains at some level an option in resolving disputes between men. Maybe on the playground or in a bar between drunks, but "Sign here or Rocko is going to break your kneecaps" is a trivial exception to how men resolve disputes they can't settle voluntarily.

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JasonL
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by JasonL » 14 Feb 2018, 10:13

Agree, but the overall vibe I get from descriptions of Peterson in this regard goes something like - and pardon my gendered shorthand here - "the social constraint on M-M violence operates differently / is a lower magnitude thing than the social constraint on M-F interaction such that men are disadvantaged in interactions with women." I think that's absurd because the social constraint isn't the only constraint in play. The most fundamental constraint is ability to inflict harm. Drunk dudes at bars do lay hands on each other, especially young dudes at young dude bars. But, to make the social constraint = net disadvantage claim remotely plausible, we'd have to be able to say something like M-W interactions outside of public view contain less explicit and implicit intimidation and physicality. There's no way that's true. Dudes grab women in ways they'd expect to get punched for in M-M interactions, they constrain movement by blocking egress and saying "come on baby" or whatever. The tolerance even in the public eye for "low level" drunk dude touching behavior is waaaay higher in M-F interactions precisely because nobody thinks she's going to stab dude in the neck for blocking her path. So, no, net of all factors it's stupid to assert a social constraint on physicality disadvantage working against dudes.

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Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 14 Feb 2018, 10:34

JasonL wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 07:03
What’s a representative thing of Petersen I could read to quickly get a gist of his actual perspective.
I have listened to his lectures, but not read much. Check his website, maybe try one of the first 6 of the numbered series (Tragedy vs. Evil, Necessity of Virtue, Religion-Meaning-Science-Truth, Slaying the Dragon Within) , or the first few Maps of Meaning lectures.

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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 14 Feb 2018, 10:39

I have to say the fact that this stuff is all YouTube lectures and not essays also leans me toward the cult view.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Sandy » 14 Feb 2018, 13:50

Mo wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 08:34
Because of the implication.
Mo++
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Jennifer
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 14 Feb 2018, 17:38

Apparently Peterson really really hated the movie "Frozen," not because he has a little girl who subjected him to 5,000 daily renditions of "Let it Go" back in the day, but because the whole message of "Hey, little girl, you don't NEED to wait for a handsome prince to come along and save the day" is terrible feminist propaganda.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jasper » 14 Feb 2018, 18:15

I heard he kicked a kitten once.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 14 Feb 2018, 18:17

Jasper wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 18:15
I heard he kicked a kitten once.
Ha
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Jennifer
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 14 Feb 2018, 18:37

Was he stupid enough to videotape himself kicking the kitten, then published it as an example of proper masculine behavior in today's hectic modern world? Because his complaints about Frozen propaganda actually were handled like that; it's not a case of someone secretly recording him when he thought he spoke in private.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jasper » 14 Feb 2018, 18:52

But what did he think about Finding Dory?
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Jennifer
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 14 Feb 2018, 18:59

I don't know; if he posted a video about that movie it hasn't gained much traction. Is there an actual point you're trying to make, albeit in a humorous fashion? If so I seem to be missing it; would you mind stating it straightforwardly? I get the presumed joke of "Anytime someone mentions a stupid thing Peterson said, you respond by alluding to an even stupider thing he did NOT say," but what is the greater point you're making about Peterson and/or his fans or critics, in the context of this discussion? Or are you just saying random Peterson non-quotes for your own amusement? I can't figure out if you're trying to participate in a conversation, or merely thinking out loud in close proximity to a conversation.
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Mo » 14 Feb 2018, 23:45

So I Googled this to see what Jennifer was talking about and his response to a question about it is really fucking dumb.
Frozen served a political purpose: to demonstrate that a woman did not need a man to be successful. Anything written to serve a political purpose (rather than to explore and create) is propaganda, not art.

Frozen was propaganda, pure and simple. Beauty and the Beast (the animated version) was not.
Credit for the Redditors for pushing back on this. I mean does he art bro?
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thoreau
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by thoreau » 14 Feb 2018, 23:59

I guess I shouldn't be surprised how batshit Peterson is. When I first heard of him (in the context of that televised debate over pronouns that a poor grad student go in trouble for showing) I thought he was going a bit farther than I would, but he had a point.

But you have to be kind of crazy to be willing to go public and die on those hills that the rest of us just grumble about. And it almost always turns out they're even crazier than we thought.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 15 Feb 2018, 00:18

If Frozen is art, will Frozen 2 be art as well?

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nicole
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by nicole » 15 Feb 2018, 00:23

If Frozen isn’t art, it’s becsuse it’s a corporate consumer product, not because it’s political propaganda.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Eric the .5b » 15 Feb 2018, 00:39

nicole wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 00:23
If Frozen isn’t art, it’s becsuse it’s a corporate consumer product, not because it’s political propaganda.
If.

As it stands, there's nothing mutually exclusive about those three classes of things.
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Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 15 Feb 2018, 01:07

nicole wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 00:23
If Frozen isn’t art, it’s becsuse it’s a corporate consumer product, not because it’s political propaganda.
That's my take.

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Warren
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Warren » 15 Feb 2018, 01:20

Dangerman wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 01:07
nicole wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 00:23
If Frozen isn’t art, it’s becsuse it’s a corporate consumer product, not because it’s political propaganda.
That's my take.
I don't see how either disqualifies it from being art.
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Jasper
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jasper » 15 Feb 2018, 06:52

So what you’re saying is, if you don’t have anything terrible to say about Peterson, you should be prohibited from the thread.

Image
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Andrew
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Andrew » 15 Feb 2018, 08:05

Jasper wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 06:52
So what you’re saying is, if you don’t have anything terrible to say about Peterson, you should be prohibited from the thread.
But Jasper, a culturally conservative dude said something bad about an animated Disney film! Get the boiling oil ready!
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Jennifer
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Jennifer » 15 Feb 2018, 08:59

Jasper wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 06:52
So what you’re saying is, if you don’t have anything terrible to say about Peterson, you should be prohibited from the thread.
Who said that?

FWIW, I'm still trying to figure out what point you were attempting to make when you responded to mentions of stupid things Peterson said and did with allusions to even stupider things Peterson did not say or do.
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Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 15 Feb 2018, 10:18

Warren wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 01:20
Dangerman wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 01:07
nicole wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 00:23
If Frozen isn’t art, it’s becsuse it’s a corporate consumer product, not because it’s political propaganda.
That's my take.
I don't see how either disqualifies it from being art.

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Dangerman
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Re: Masculinity, so fragile

Post by Dangerman » 15 Feb 2018, 10:24

Is an issue of the NYT art? Is it political propaganda?

I don't think his point is strong or relevant, but I don't know that he's flat out wrong.

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