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grylliade.org • Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible
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Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 11:02
by Warren
Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

I really enjoyed this. It distills a long history I've been actively following/advocating.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 12:03
by Mo
It seems weird to me to call gay marriage a libertarian policy win. If my memory serves me, I don’t recall much, if any, energy for SSM coming from libertarians and it primarily being pushed by the left. While not a split akin to abortion, it seems that because a lot of libertarians were culturally right, a lot of the avoidance of talking about SSM was justified by saying “the state shouldn’t be involved in marriage at all” and promptly ignoring the issue.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 12:14
by Warren
Mo wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 12:03
It seems weird to me to call gay marriage a libertarian policy win. If my memory serves me, I don’t recall much, if any, energy for SSM coming from libertarians and it primarily being pushed by the left. While not a split akin to abortion, it seems that because a lot of libertarians were culturally right, a lot of the avoidance of talking about SSM was justified by saying “the state shouldn’t be involved in marriage at all” and promptly ignoring the issue.
Check. Granting the same legal status to gay and straight marriage has been long standing libertarian consensus. The libertarian opposition to gay marriage was an opposition to state involvement in marriage period. Even so, extending equal protection under the law to homosexuals has been fundamental libertarian policy.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 13:03
by Highway
There was some libertarian push for SSM, and a not-insignificant amount of it was actively rebuffed by gay rights activists, due to their own purity tests in that the libertarian groups were not "liberal" enough in their other views to make common cause with for that one policy, or were loathe to let a libertarian group share in the credit.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 14:20
by Hugh Akston
Gillespie and Welch like to point out that people were advocating for gay marriage in the pages of reason back in the 70s before it was cool.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 14:36
by Mo
I’m not saying that there weren’t libertarians pushing for SSM. But the activist and even elite energy from libertarians on SSM was orders of magnitude less than for things like pot legalization or job licensing reform.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 14:46
by Jennifer
I don't doubt that some libertarians were pushing for SSM as early as the 70s. but most of what I saw on the matter was of the "get the state out of marriage altogether" argument, which for the majority of people was merely a cop out thinly hiding the fact that those individuals were themselves opposed to SSM (especially given how many of those "get the state out of marriage" types were themselves married to an opposite-sex partner in the eyes of the state).

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 15:21
by thoreau
Jennifer wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 14:46
I don't doubt that some libertarians were pushing for SSM as early as the 70s. but most of what I saw on the matter was of the "get the state out of marriage altogether" argument, which for the majority of people was merely a cop out thinly hiding the fact that those individuals were themselves opposed to SSM (especially given how many of those "get the state out of marriage" types were themselves married to an opposite-sex partner in the eyes of the state).
This.

There was no great libertarian outcry for abolition of state-sanctioned marriage. Very few of the libertarians* who argued against same-sex marriage walked their "Keep the state out of it" walk by ending their own marriage and replacing it with legal agreements that would have more-or-less the same effect for matters of property ownership, power of attorney, and whatnot. A great many of them did everything in their power to look, sound, and act like mere Republicans who smoke pot (not that drug liberalization was a high priority for some of them either).



*Maybe they weren't True Scotsman Libertarians, but they used the label, agreed with a non-trivial fraction of the stances, and hung out in libertarian circles.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 15:45
by Hugh Akston
thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:21
Very few of the libertarians* who argued against same-sex marriage walked their "Keep the state out of it" walk by ending their own marriage and replacing it with legal agreements that would have more-or-less the same effect for matters of property ownership, power of attorney, and whatnot.
They even drove on government roads and called the fire department when their houses burned down. Fucking hypocrites.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 16:51
by thoreau
Fair enough, but I will note that sharing property and designating someone else as your power of attorney is much easier than staying off government roads.

Anyway, H&R was chock full of people whose stance on gay marriage seemed to be "We will never side with the left on a cultural issue."

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 16:58
by Warren
thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 16:51
Fair enough, but I will note that sharing property and designating someone else as your power of attorney is much easier than staying off government roads.

Anyway, H&R was chock full of people whose stance on gay marriage seemed to be "We will never side with the left on a cultural issue."
It may be True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't consider the H&R Commentariot part of the libertarian community.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 17:09
by Aresen
Warren wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 16:58
thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 16:51
Fair enough, but I will note that sharing property and designating someone else as your power of attorney is much easier than staying off government roads.

Anyway, H&R was chock full of people whose stance on gay marriage seemed to be "We will never side with the left on a cultural issue."
It may be True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't consider the H&R Commentariot part of the libertarian community.
I sympathize with your viewpoint, but I will not insist on a Libertarian Purity Test® for those who wish to call themselves libertarian. OTOH, I will agree that a certain miletery loyer has self-identified as NOT being a libertarian.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 17:49
by lunchstealer
Hugh Akston wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:45
thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:21
Very few of the libertarians* who argued against same-sex marriage walked their "Keep the state out of it" walk by ending their own marriage and replacing it with legal agreements that would have more-or-less the same effect for matters of property ownership, power of attorney, and whatnot.
They even drove on government roads and called the fire department when their houses burned down. Fucking hypocrites.
But if gay people were barred from roads or fire departments let their houses burn down, would we really shrug and say 'not a valid function of government'?

Perfect world, marriages are contractual matters and weddings are social matters; less perfect world, government blindly accepts marriages of consenting adults; least perfect world, government actively picks winners and losers in the government-sanctioned-marriage game.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 18:18
by Mo
After giving some thought, I think I got an idea of where my mind was. For the past couple decades, libertarians weren’t part of the conversation about advancing the ball or had their own independent vision (aside from destroy all marriage). It was much more about not opposing efforts or hitching on to existing drives by liberal groups. This is in sharp contrast to things like legalization, criminal justice reform, eminent domain or free speech. Where there is a strong, independent libertarian POV that is being pressed by libertarian activists. My point was there’s a difference between hopping along for the ride and pushing your vision.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 20:39
by Hugh Akston
lunchstealer wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 17:49
Hugh Akston wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:45
thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:21
Very few of the libertarians* who argued against same-sex marriage walked their "Keep the state out of it" walk by ending their own marriage and replacing it with legal agreements that would have more-or-less the same effect for matters of property ownership, power of attorney, and whatnot.
They even drove on government roads and called the fire department when their houses burned down. Fucking hypocrites.
But if gay people were barred from roads or fire departments let their houses burn down, would we really shrug and say 'not a valid function of government'?

Perfect world, marriages are contractual matters and weddings are social matters; less perfect world, government blindly accepts marriages of consenting adults; least perfect world, government actively picks winners and losers in the government-sanctioned-marriage game.
This is correct. It's not wrong to say that government shouldn't be issuing marriage licenses in the first place, even if the people saying it at the time were transparently doing so for the most stupendously wrong reason.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 20:49
by lunchstealer
IIRC, the LP officially had gay marriage as part of its platform in 1971 or 72, though.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 20:50
by Jennifer
Hugh Akston wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 20:39
lunchstealer wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 17:49
Hugh Akston wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:45
thoreau wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 15:21
Very few of the libertarians* who argued against same-sex marriage walked their "Keep the state out of it" walk by ending their own marriage and replacing it with legal agreements that would have more-or-less the same effect for matters of property ownership, power of attorney, and whatnot.
They even drove on government roads and called the fire department when their houses burned down. Fucking hypocrites.
But if gay people were barred from roads or fire departments let their houses burn down, would we really shrug and say 'not a valid function of government'?

Perfect world, marriages are contractual matters and weddings are social matters; less perfect world, government blindly accepts marriages of consenting adults; least perfect world, government actively picks winners and losers in the government-sanctioned-marriage game.
This is correct. It's not wrong to say that government shouldn't be issuing marriage licenses in the first place,
But I'd argue it was wrong to say that as a means of dismissing a still-current injustice: "Oh, gay couples can't get married? Yeah, well, government shouldn't be in the marriage biz anyway. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to cut this debate short so my spouse and I can go have our anniversary dinner."

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 20:52
by Eric the .5b
Up until the mid-aughts, the only Americans I saw or interacted with who wanted gay people to have legally recognized marriage who weren't themselves gay were libertarians and a few people well left of Blue center. Everyone else, including everyone else in Team Blue, was quite comfortable being loudly and firmly against it for reasons that boiled down to "because Jesus*" and offering things-not-called-marriage to try to deflect the demand for equality. But by the late aughts, the mood started to change quickly.

Hell, a former Grylliader was one of the people working on the gay marriage effort in New Hampshire.




* Really, because Paul.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 20:58
by Eric the .5b
The article is amusing, though, given that big lecture from back in the late-aughts and into the tens from then-reason writers about how ethical and moral arguments were totally the wrong tack and that wonky consequentialist arguments were the only acceptable ways to push libertarianism or even to argue for it among ourselves.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 21:22
by Hugh Akston
lunchstealer wrote:
24 Nov 2018, 20:49
IIRC, the LP officially had gay marriage as part of its platform in 1971 or 72, though.
If you squint hard you can see support for gay rights in '72 (the first national platform).
They opposed discrimination based on sexual preference in '76.
The word 'marriage' doesn't appear until 1982.
'96 is the first time that you can reasonably read opposition to DOMA-style legislation.
2008 is the first time that 'sexual orientation' and 'marriage' appear in the same paragraph. Team Blue was opposed to DOMA that same year, but didn't get on the gay marriage train until '012.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 24 Nov 2018, 22:33
by Jake
I remember the old H&R arguments about it.

The correct position (in my not-so-humble opinion) always was: Yes, government should be out of the marriage business. But as long as that's not the case, gay couples should have just as much right to marriage as straight couples.

John and a legion of trolls and/or sock puppets disagreed, and desperately tried to keep the focus only on the first part, while refusing to engage with the second. Their arguments were, unsurprisingly, hollow and disingenuous.

Re: Legalizing Marijuana and Gay Marriage Seemed Impossible

Posted: 25 Nov 2018, 07:09
by Mo
TNR published Sullivan’s case for gay marriage as a cover piece back in 1989.