Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

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nicole
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Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by nicole » 14 Aug 2018, 09:39

From the post:
The Department of Homeland Security is finalizing rules that would make it vastly easier to brand immigrants deemed "likely" to qualify for even minimal social services a "public charge" and make it harder for them to enter the country if they are abroad — or, if they are here, obtain green cards or citizenship or otherwise upgrade their immigration status. It might not even matter if these legal immigrants personally consume these services. It would reportedly be enough that their American children or spouses do. By some estimates, 20 million immigrants may be affected.

The proposed guidance, evidently the brainchild of Stephen Miller, an implacable immigration opponent, is relying on an 1891 law that barred immigrants "likely to become public charges." But this meant — in the evocative language of its time — "idiots, lunatics, convicts," or otherwise indigent or disabled folks who couldn't earn a living and would therefore become a ward of the state. Consistent with this understanding, DHS's 1999 guidance defined "public charge" as anyone who would become "primarily dependent" on cash benefits.

Miller's scheme would brand anyone who receives — or is likely to receive — services or subsidies (barring a few explicitly exempted) worth greater than 3 percent of the poverty line a public charge. This works out to $1 per day for a single person or 50 cents for a family of four, Cato Institute's David Bier points out. Even subsidies to purchase coverage mandated by ObamaCare would count against them. Worse, immigrants don't actually have to avail of these benefits to have their petitions rejected. They or their family simply have to be eligible for these subsidies because they are sick, old, have young children, or don't have unsubsidized coverage — unless they make 250 percent of the poverty level, in which case they'd be exempted.

The administration's intention here is clear: Cut legal, family-based, and low-skilled immigration and allow only the tippy top in.
https://reason.com/archives/2018/08/14/ ... rd#comment
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by nicole » 14 Aug 2018, 09:40

So, I'm trying not to freak out too much about this, but it affects multiple members of my family and I'm kinda freaking out about it.
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Ellie » 14 Aug 2018, 10:17

Real talk, who the fuck doesn't qualify for some kind of social services somehow?

My thoughts on Trump are, as always, something I should not even hint at lest I end up under surveillance from government agents. Fuck, I hate him so much.
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Aresen » 14 Aug 2018, 10:18

Where is America going to get the convenience store operators it needs?
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by nicole » 14 Aug 2018, 10:23

Like this sounds crazy but I'm actually worried my dad's green card is going to be revoked.

(I know this story isn't super-new, I've been worried about it since last week.)
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Highway » 14 Aug 2018, 11:03

It's just so much xenophobic bullshit, I think your reaction is exactly what they want. "Make everyone afraid, and then those people won't even want to come here, and we can restore our white peoples' paradise."
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Mo » 14 Aug 2018, 12:17

By this logic we should have deported Melania's folks who will be on the SS/M teet for a good long while.
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by thoreau » 14 Aug 2018, 12:20

The scientists who built the atomic bomb in WWII spent the rest of their lives on the public teat, either directly as employees of the weapons program and/or state universities, or slightly less directly as private university researchers with federal grants and federal consulting gigs.
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Aresen » 14 Aug 2018, 13:35

Mo wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 12:17
By this logic we should have deported Melania's folks who will be on the SS/M teet for a good long while.
Don't try to get me to support it.
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by lunchstealer » 14 Aug 2018, 15:46

I can at least see a rationale behind doing that kind of thing moving forward. Hey look you're free to come here but you really should make it on your own or go back is at least an ethos.

But a critical piece of rule of law is predictability. This is tinpot banana republic shit. They say they want to make America great again, but one of the things that made America great was that there were a bunch of unwritten and partially-written rules that everyone agreed to play by because we're all grownups and people knew that the government couldn't just do whatever the fuck one small group of people wanted just because. You make rules public, you make them come into effect in X amount of time to give people time to make arrangements.

That's what Trump is undermining. They're taking one of the key features of Western civilization that they're so chauvinistic about and shitting all over it. Western culture is a set of social norms that permeate lots of things including government. Using power to rip the rug out from under people who followed the rules is just not one of them. It's specifically one of the ones you DON'T do in Western culture. It's what makes people trust each other and the government. Sure they gripe about it, but they fundamentally trust that it's going to act more-or-less the same tomorrow that it did yesterday.

High-trust society is probably the single biggest, most important part of America. These dipshits don't get that.
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Jennifer » 14 Aug 2018, 16:32

lunchstealer wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 15:46
High-trust society is probably the single biggest, most important part of America. These dipshits don't get that.
More likely, these dipshits don't care. I have seen nothing at all to indicate any of them would put the good of the country over their own private enrichment.

Relevant quote from a recent WaPo op-ed:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... b0304d048f
Imagine that U.S. military leaders spent most of 1941 warning President Franklin D. Roosevelt and his Democratic Party of a coming Pearl Harbor attack. Then imagine history’s harsh judgment against FDR’s party had it ignored those concerns, voted against efforts to fortify the Pacific fleet and plotted the firing of generals who were working to expose the looming Japanese threat. Historians would have rightly savaged these politicians as traitors to their country.

Seventy-seven years later, President Trump and his Republican Party are showing a disturbing ambivalence toward Russia’s attacks on U.S. democracy. What exactly are we to make of their disturbing behavior? Even after Trump’s intelligence chiefs handed Republicans incontrovertible evidence of Russian malevolence, Trump dismissed the warnings as a hoax, the GOP House Intelligence Committee chairman secretly plotted against those leading the Russia investigation and Senate Republicans voted in lock step against a Democratic bill providing a stronger defense against future Russian attacks.

“The X-Files” this is not. The truth about Russia is out there, and it is staring every Republican right in the face.

Trump’s director of national intelligence said warning lights were “blinking red” and compared the threat level from Russia to what we faced leading up to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks....
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by dhex » 14 Aug 2018, 16:40

wow comment thread whoa
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by nicole » 14 Aug 2018, 16:54

Why don't you hate brown people dhex
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by thoreau » 14 Aug 2018, 18:52


lunchstealer wrote:High-trust society is probably the single biggest, most important part of America. These dipshits don't get that.
They don't trust a lot of people, and think we won't be great again until we get rid of the people they don't trust.

The fact that nobody will trust the ones who remain hasn't yet occurred to them.
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Jennifer » 14 Aug 2018, 18:54

thoreau wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 18:52
lunchstealer wrote:High-trust society is probably the single biggest, most important part of America. These dipshits don't get that.
They don't trust a lot of people, and think we won't be great again until we get rid of the people they don't trust.

The fact that nobody will trust the ones who remain hasn't yet occurred to them.
There's an old saying along the lines of "Nobody fears being conned more than a con artist, and nobody fears being robbed more than a thief." If Trump thinks the rest of humanity is like him, no wonder he doesn't trust anybody.
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by dead_elvis » 14 Aug 2018, 20:00

nicole wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 09:40
So, I'm trying not to freak out too much about this, but it affects multiple members of my family and I'm kinda freaking out about it.
There are just so many things wrong with how immigration is being handled right now I don't blame anyone for freaking out. It's blowing up any semblance of fairness and humaneness. Even if you've been following the rules, too bad? That's just morally wrong.

We were freaking out about the last scare, the one that said if you lied at any point (in a very bureaucratic process that has multiple opportunities to innocently fill out something wrong) you could have your *citizenship revoked*. Even with the court precedent saying non-material mistakes don't count, it was small comfort considering the way ICE is behaving, because who knows what would happen until it got resolved.

And this is also terrible, along the lines of accusing libertarians of being hypocritical if they accept any gov't benefits, drive on public roads, go to public schools, etc. If society is set up in a way that normalizes, if not requires these things, there is nothing wrong with participating, especially when it's simply getting your tax dollars back. It's mendacious to set up a system that hardly any human could pass and then claim the people who didn't pass weren't worthy. Things like this expose the lie that this is about illegal immigration or letting in only "the best" (whatever that means :roll: ), it's about not letting in anyone at all.

I feel your pain, stay strong and best wishes going through this. And for dog's sake don't read the Reason comments on this topic. Every time I do I regret it. What a cesspool of lack of basic humanity, the way they talk about people I know and love.
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Painboy » 14 Aug 2018, 20:28

Yeah this one bothers me a lot. Aside from the mess this is going to drop into people's lap I have a couple of adoptive* brothers who are from Ghana and I wonder how this is going to play out. One of them had to do the fake marriage thing just to stay in the country despite having spent his entire high school and collegiate life in the US. He's now married to a girl he brought over from Ghana. I don't know if they have had to use any government programs or not. The other is luckily married to an American women so I think he's safe.

*Not really technically correct but I don't have a better one.

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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Ellie » 14 Aug 2018, 22:28

Painboy wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 20:28
I don't know if they have had to use any government programs or not.
Or even qualified to, without using them? That's the thing that makes my head explode. Our family qualifies for a ton of shit up to and including food stamps, and we both have decent jobs, and we still fit in the income range. I'm not totally kidding when I say I don't know who DOESN'T qualify for SOMETHING.

Godddddd this administration and Trump and immigration policy in general and I just FUCKING *many expletives deleted*
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Aresen » 14 Aug 2018, 23:19

For me, I worry every time I travel to or though the US that some USBPS person is going to decide I am suspect for some reason and I Wil get 'Red Flagged. Rationally, I can't come up with a reason why they would, but I still worry about it.

A friend's son just got 'Red Flagged a few weeks ago because of a 10 year old assault charge. He complained and the USBPS officer said "You Canadians do worse to Americans."
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by lunchstealer » 15 Aug 2018, 03:49

Painboy wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 20:28
The other is luckily married to an American women so I think he's safe.
I wouldn't bet on it. ICE has denied a visa application of a 4-year-old adopted child of two American citizens.

https://kdvr.com/2018/08/09/colorado-pa ... -deported/

Seriously at this point I think they're just trying to see how much they can get away with before God smites one of them.
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Jadagul » 15 Aug 2018, 03:52

lunchstealer wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 03:49
Painboy wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 20:28
The other is luckily married to an American women so I think he's safe.
I wouldn't bet on it. ICE has denied a visa application of a 4-year-old adopted child of two American citizens.

https://kdvr.com/2018/08/09/colorado-pa ... -deported/

Seriously at this point I think they're just trying to see how much they can get away with before God smites one of them.
Apparently that one is actually standard practice for the past couple of decades; the couple failed to follow the rules they're supposed to follow for that sort of overseas adoption.

Now, the stated purpose of the rules is to prevent child trafficking, so I assume the rules are stupid. But they long predate Trump.

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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by thoreau » 15 Aug 2018, 07:33

Maximally aggressive, inflexible application of the rules is surely not a uniquely Trumpian thing, but it is something that they can be quite confident that the boss won't punish them for.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Kolohe » 15 Aug 2018, 08:14

thoreau wrote:
14 Aug 2018, 12:20
The scientists who built the atomic bomb in WWII spent the rest of their lives on the public teat, either directly as employees of the weapons program and/or state universities, or slightly less directly as private university researchers with federal grants and federal consulting gigs.
And so did many of the Nazis (sorry, Germans) that built American rockets to beat the Nazis (sorry again, Germans) that were building Soviet rockets.
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Re: Trump's Bogus Argument to Deny Green Cards and Citizenship to Immigrants who Play by the Rules

Post by Aresen » 16 Aug 2018, 17:04

thoreau wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 07:33
Maximally aggressive, inflexible application of the rules is surely not a uniquely Trumpian thing, but it is something that they can be quite confident that the boss won't punish them for.
"Our hands were tied" is the cry of both the incompetent and the evil among bureaucrats. Those with imagination and compassion tend to get weeded out.
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