Page 1 of 1

Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 12 Mar 2018, 17:12
by Kwix
Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit
Nick makes a reasoned argument that sans the Twitter chatter, Trump is perfectly in line with the past few presidents and in some cases better in how he pivots on his distractions.

The usual commentariat crew parry clumsily until Kenny Boy says that it's a-okay to support Duerte because "security interests". Game over man, game over.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 12 Mar 2018, 19:54
by Warren
Kwix wrote:
12 Mar 2018, 17:12
The usual commentariat crew parry clumsily until Kenny Boy says that it's a-okay to support Duerte because "security interests". Game over man, game over.
Meh. Duerte is a weak sauce dig on (former Grylliader) Ken over an otherwise coherent point.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 14 Mar 2018, 23:31
by Eric the .5b
There is a case for a lot of the Team Blue rhetoric being stuff they would have used against any Team Red winner. But, it might be valuable to put together reasons why Trump is worse than recent ex-presidents.

Here are four from me:

* The Russia Thing is a Hell of a lot more plausible than any corruption claim against the ex-presidents.
* His immigration policies, including those curtailed by the courts, are definitely worse than those of at least the last three presidents.
* He openly gave cover to and took support from neo-nazis, even if that backfired to some extent.
* He's fired up Team Blue and the actual US Left more than any Red president since Nixon.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 14 Mar 2018, 23:56
by Jadagul
Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Mar 2018, 23:31
There is a case for a lot of the Team Blue rhetoric being stuff they would have used against any Team Red winner. But, it might be valuable to put together reasons why Trump is worse than recent ex-presidents.

Here are four from me:

* The Russia Thing is a Hell of a lot more plausible than any corruption claim against the ex-presidents.
* His immigration policies, including those curtailed by the courts, are definitely worse than those of at least the last three presidents.
* He openly gave cover to and took support from neo-nazis, even if that backfired to some extent.
* He's fired up Team Blue and the actual US Left more than any Red president since Nixon.
Also the pretty blatant managerial incompetence.

Also the Russia thing isn't even the most credible corruption charge against him, and it also seems like literally everyone in his cabinet is engaged in moderately corrupt behavior. (Like, more so and more blatantly than usual).

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 11:04
by JasonL
I don't think there is much to the Trump Russia thing other than yes Russia had some operations to help him win. It's very clear why he would prefer Trump to Hillary vis a vis globalist interventionism. I think people are too married to it now, trying to read everything as some kind of secret agreement. Haley is in front of the UN banging on Russia assassinations. We actually bombed russians and russian equipment in syria. The motivations of this administration are inconsistent, but I don't know that Russia is treated as any kind of ally moreso than anyone else like China or Indonesia.

That said, I would cosign:

* His immigration policies, including those curtailed by the courts, are definitely worse than those of at least the last three presidents.
* He openly gave cover to and took support from neo-nazis, even if that backfired to some extent.
* He's fired up Team Blue and the actual US Left more than any Red president since Nixon.

and

* Also the pretty blatant managerial incompetence.

His staff turnover rate is insane. He hires sycophants and scorns policy types as part of his brand. He's a stupid stupid man. The essence of his coalition is gross nationalism and actively hostile to things I think are to the benefit of humanity. He's worse on trade than anyone I can remember. He was incompetent to address changes ACA. His one legislative success has been a notable exapansion of the federal debt. Yes corp rates needed to be cut, but overall I'm way more worried about debt/gdp than I am high tax burden overall for US taxpayers.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 11:09
by thoreau
I cosign all of Eric's points, and everything Jason said except about Russia. I won't belabor the Russia point, I'll just note that (per another thread) if you apply Occam's Razor to Trump's statements about Russia it's pretty clear that--at a minimum--Trump knows Putin was pulling for him and didn't mind. Put that together with Fredo's willingness to meet with Russian operatives and you have to wonder...

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 12:12
by Painboy
I really just don't care about the Trump/Russia collusion thing. Unless it turns out Russia used state assets to intimidate or assassinate someone and Trump gave the order himself or by proxy, I'm not seeing Russia's interference any differently than when Kerry got swiftboated. Especially when most of any effect Russia might have had on the election seems to be pretty tepid stuff.

Sure it would affirm Trump's a scumbag but we already knew that. It's another reason not to vote for him but do we really need anymore?

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 12:21
by JasonL
thoreau wrote:I cosign all of Eric's points, and everything Jason said except about Russia. I won't belabor the Russia point, I'll just note that (per another thread) if you apply Occam's Razor to Trump's statements about Russia it's pretty clear that--at a minimum--Trump knows Putin was pulling for him and didn't mind. Put that together with Fredo's willingness to meet with Russian operatives and you have to wonder...
I think you are doing Occam’s razor wrong. The razor says he’s an inconsistent retard with scumbag friends. Nations try to interfere through propaganda all the time for their preferred outcome.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 12:24
by thoreau
It is very, very dangerous for a foreign power to have potential personal leverage over the Head of Government and his close associates. This isn't just a matter of Trump and a foreign leader being political allies with interests in common due to the overlapping interests of their countries. This is a matter of Trump's campaign having been infiltrated by a foreign intelligence service, as a direct consequence of many years spent doing shady real estate deals with Russian gangsters. It's a profound conflict of interest. And it can have no-shit consequences: A close ally is dealing with a Russian nerve agent attack on their soil, and their decisions on information-sharing have to be tempered by the fear that the President and his circle are compromised. Yes, there are and have been plenty of problems with the way that the UK has responded to covert actions by the Russians, but now we get to add "Can't speak freely with the US President since he and his associates are subject to Russian leverage" to the list.

I will grant that, on some level, this goes hand-in-hand with what we already know about Trump: We already know that he's done shady real estate deals for many years, and that many of his shady real estate deals seem to involve Russians. I'm saying that this is precisely why such things matter, because it provides a natural way for a foreign adversary to get access that they shouldn't have. When you get cozy with the Russian mob, the Russian government will follow.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 12:27
by thoreau
JasonL wrote:
15 Mar 2018, 12:21
thoreau wrote:I cosign all of Eric's points, and everything Jason said except about Russia. I won't belabor the Russia point, I'll just note that (per another thread) if you apply Occam's Razor to Trump's statements about Russia it's pretty clear that--at a minimum--Trump knows Putin was pulling for him and didn't mind. Put that together with Fredo's willingness to meet with Russian operatives and you have to wonder...
I think you are doing Occam’s razor wrong. The razor says he’s an inconsistent retard with scumbag friends. Nations try to interfere through propaganda all the time for their preferred outcome.
I don't give a shit about the troll farms. I never have.

I give a shit about the President having dirty business ties with Russia and Russian government assets showing up in his campaign. I give a shit about Manafort. I give a shit about Russian government agents meeting with his idiot son to offer the fruits of their hacking. (Not their trolling, their hacking.) I give a shit about Jared Kushner trying to use Russian diplomatic facilities because he wanted to talk about things without the US government knowing. I give a shit about his campaign staff having lots of useful idiots tied to Moscow.

Russians can post whatever they want to post on Facebook. I don't give a shit. When they get people onto Trump's staff, that I care about quite a bit.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 12:30
by Aresen
thoreau wrote:
15 Mar 2018, 12:27
Russians can post whatever they want to post on Facebook. I don't give a shit. When they get people onto Trump's staff, that I care about quite a bit.
Hey! They're probably the most competent people there! :shock:

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 12:42
by Sandy
Image

The blaming everything that goes even slightly wrong for the left on Russia is getting pretty much to the above extent.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 12:48
by thoreau
To be clear, I don't think Russia had a substantial effect on the election, and even if they did it's ultimately the fault of Americans who were willing/able to fall for it.

And the fault of Hillary Clinton and the people who enabled her bullshit.

I do think Russia had an effect on the President, and that's the problem.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 13:04
by Dangerman
So you're saying it approached significance?
That maybe it shows a trend towards significance?
Is it appearing to be marginally significant?

:D

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 13:47
by Mo
And while all presidents have thrown up tariffs, on net, trade has become freer under every president in my lifetime. Trump, OTOH, just wants to straight up throw up trade barriers.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 13:59
by Kwix
JasonL wrote:
15 Mar 2018, 11:04
He's a stupid stupid man.
QFMFT
The WaPo wrote:President Trump boasted in a fundraising speech Wednesday that he made up information in a meeting with the leader of a top U.S. ally, saying he insisted to Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau that the United States runs a trade deficit with its neighbor to the north without knowing whether that was true.
Apparently an aide informed him that we run a trade surplus and he still insisted to the PM that it was false.

EDIT: I see that Aresen beat me to it.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 15:37
by Mo
Shit like this also concerns the hell out of me. Purging the non-political permanent bureaucracy and returning to a spoils system is a major step backward.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 15:39
by thoreau
The Andrew McCabe thing bugs me. If a civil servant can lose his pension for not being sufficiently harsh on a candidate from the opposition party, we'll get the FBI playing partisan politics more often, not less often.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 16:04
by lunchstealer
Mo wrote:
15 Mar 2018, 15:37
Shit like this also concerns the hell out of me. Purging the non-political permanent bureaucracy and returning to a spoils system is a major step backward.
Yeah, Deep State is a kind of useful concept to describe entrenched bureaucracy, and that entrenched bureaucracy has some bad outcomes, but I agree that spoils is worse. It does little or nothing to reduce the size of government and more just makes it unpredictable and unpredictable is bad for lots of things.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 16:26
by Mo
And Deep State in the US is completely different from the original concept of Deep State (the Turkish concept). Unlike the Turkish example, there is no cabal with a specific agenda that drives the direction of the country. There's a little bit of this in the intel services, but for the most part the career staff keeps the lights on and maintains institutional knowledge.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 16 Mar 2018, 00:13
by Warren
JasonL wrote:
15 Mar 2018, 11:04
I don't think there is much to the Trump Russia thing other than yes Russia had some operations to help him win. It's very clear why he would prefer Trump to Hillary vis a vis globalist interventionism. I think people are too married to it now, trying to read everything as some kind of secret agreement. Haley is in front of the UN banging on Russia assassinations. We actually bombed russians and russian equipment in syria. The motivations of this administration are inconsistent, but I don't know that Russia is treated as any kind of ally moreso than anyone else like China or Indonesia.

That said, I would cosign:

* His immigration policies, including those curtailed by the courts, are definitely worse than those of at least the last three presidents.
His stated policies are abhorrent. Yet current immigration policy is not substantially different than it has been for a very long time.
* He openly gave cover to and took support from neo-nazis, even if that backfired to some extent.
This is unseemly, detestable, and just stupid. But white-supremacists are at historic lows in this country. I don't see any impact on the welfare of the nation over this.
* He's fired up Team Blue and the actual US Left more than any Red president since Nixon.
Has he?

* Also the pretty blatant managerial incompetence.

His staff turnover rate is insane. He hires sycophants and scorns policy types as part of his brand. He's a stupid stupid man. The essence of his coalition is gross nationalism and actively hostile to things I think are to the benefit of humanity. He's worse on trade than anyone I can remember. He was incompetent to address changes ACA.
Are you sure that's not a feature?
He was incompetent to address changes ACA. His one legislative success has been a notable exapansion of the federal debt. Yes corp rates needed to be cut, but overall I'm way more worried about debt/gdp than I am high tax burden overall for US taxpayers.
Name one politician that has come within a mile of the oval office that this isn't true of.

Re: Trump Is More Like Recent Presidents Than Anyone Wants To Admit

Posted: 16 Mar 2018, 10:38
by Mo
Warren wrote:
16 Mar 2018, 00:13

His stated policies are abhorrent. Yet current immigration policy is not substantially different than it has been for a very long time.
ICE is more unchained and unaccountable than it's been before, with non-criminals being deported. ICE is deporting people during meeting where people are going through the green card and other legalization processes. People are getting arrested after reporting crimes and the like. Immigration enforcement is completely different.
Warren wrote:
16 Mar 2018, 00:13
This is unseemly, detestable, and just stupid. But white-supremacists are at historic lows in this country. I don't see any impact on the welfare of the nation over this.
Any evidence for that? At the very least, there's evidence that they feel that there is enough popular support/cover that they're coming out with public open events vs. trying to stay under the radar.
Warren wrote:
16 Mar 2018, 00:13
* Also the pretty blatant managerial incompetence.

His staff turnover rate is insane. He hires sycophants and scorns policy types as part of his brand. He's a stupid stupid man. The essence of his coalition is gross nationalism and actively hostile to things I think are to the benefit of humanity. He's worse on trade than anyone I can remember. He was incompetent to address changes ACA.
Are you sure that's not a feature?
Oddly, the managerial incompetence is primarily in the places where you don't want it, foreign relations and the like. In the horrifying corners of the administration, ICE and DOJ, you will find the few pockets of competence.
Warren wrote:
16 Mar 2018, 00:13
He was incompetent to address changes ACA. His one legislative success has been a notable exapansion of the federal debt. Yes corp rates needed to be cut, but overall I'm way more worried about debt/gdp than I am high tax burden overall for US taxpayers.
Name one politician that has come within a mile of the oval office that this isn't true of.
No politician in my life pushed for massive pro-cyclical expansions of the deficit. The closest is the Bush Tax cuts, but those were unwisely turning a budget deficit to budget neutrality rather than a shrinking budget deficit into a massive and growing budget deficit.