Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allure

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nicole
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Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allure

Post by nicole » 08 Mar 2017, 12:20

http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/08/gende ... ebate-reve

I saw this first elsewhere, and found it really interesting. Now that I have watched the clip, even more so!
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by Sandy » 08 Mar 2017, 12:33

nicole wrote:http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/08/gende ... ebate-reve

I saw this first elsewhere, and found it really interesting. Now that I have watched the clip, even more so!
Very cool, and yeah, I've thought that about a lot of these just-so "this wouldn't be tolerated if it came from X demographic" responses. Most identity politics starts with the conclusion, and rarely is it honestly tested against evidence.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by tr0g » 08 Mar 2017, 12:34

nicole wrote:http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/08/gende ... ebate-reve

I saw this first elsewhere, and found it really interesting. Now that I have watched the clip, even more so!
Further evidence, were any needed, that Hillary really was a train wreck of a candidate.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by thoreau » 08 Mar 2017, 13:39

Sandy wrote:
nicole wrote:http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/08/gende ... ebate-reve

I saw this first elsewhere, and found it really interesting. Now that I have watched the clip, even more so!
Very cool, and yeah, I've thought that about a lot of these just-so "this wouldn't be tolerated if it came from X demographic" responses. Most identity politics starts with the conclusion, and rarely is it honestly tested against evidence.
A non-trivial fraction of bias research also starts with the conclusion. Read Lee Jussim's book.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 08 Mar 2017, 14:03

thoreau wrote:
Sandy wrote:
nicole wrote:http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/08/gende ... ebate-reve

I saw this first elsewhere, and found it really interesting. Now that I have watched the clip, even more so!
Very cool, and yeah, I've thought that about a lot of these just-so "this wouldn't be tolerated if it came from X demographic" responses. Most identity politics starts with the conclusion, and rarely is it honestly tested against evidence.
A non-trivial fraction of bias research also starts with the conclusion. Read Lee Jussim's book.
The thing I found most startling was that there was such a thing as a "clinical associate professor of educational theatre."

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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by dead_elvis » 08 Mar 2017, 14:13

I was particularly struck by the post-performance discussions about effeminacy. People felt that the male version of Clinton was feminine, and that that was bad.
That seems like quite a weak point of the exercise, the inherent subjectiveness of how the actors play the part. It also opens up the possibility that what people reacted to negatively wasn't physical gender, but perceived femininity, which might support the original point.

I do find it annoying that here's something else to add to the list of superficial qualities people latch on to, instead of actual ideals and issues; apparently (if this small exercise did extrapolate to the general population) we can't have a male president who comes across as "feminine."
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by thoreau » 08 Mar 2017, 14:46

I just watched the video. Now I get the appeal of Trump. Brenda King is a stronger woman than the neo-Victorian branch of feminism could begin to understand.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by nicole » 08 Mar 2017, 14:48

thoreau wrote:I just watched the video. Now I get the appeal of Trump. Brenda King is a stronger woman than the neo-Victorian branch of feminism could begin to understand.
Are you being serious? Because I didn't want to give things away in my OP, but I found the delivery of Trump's lines if anything more offensive from a woman. (Unlike most viewers, apparently.)
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by thoreau » 08 Mar 2017, 14:55

I am serious. Maybe I would feel differently if Brenda King were in a vacuum, but the Clinton impersonator was grating. He makes the female Trump look and sound good by comparison.

Sent from a phone so their may be speling errors and autocorrect snafu's.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by nicole » 08 Mar 2017, 15:05

Yeah, fascinating. And I found the male Clinton way less annoying than the real thing.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by thoreau » 08 Mar 2017, 15:17

Neither you nor I could be considered very typical in our views on social roles, so it would be dangerous to extrapolate from either of us. More revealing is that the people who put this together and put together a focus group got exactly the opposite of their expected result. That doesn't mean that their focus group generalized to the entire country, but it does mean that this is more complicated than the pundits made it seem with their assertions about gender reversals.

Sent from a phone so their may be speling errors and autocorrect snafu's.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by Warren » 08 Mar 2017, 15:25

I watched the clip. I wouldn't sit through the whole debate (I didn't sit through the actual debate). I'm disgusted that people's perceptions changed. They said exactly what the candidates said and it was every bit as stupid and for exactly the same reasons. The only way it could have changed is if the candidates didn't come with all their baggage. Knowing The Donald to be a clown, and the existence of the Never Trump caucus assured me that he wouldn't do any lasting damage. Likewise having seen HRC as First Lady and SoS, I knew her to be a savvy political operator consumed with ambition, committed to oligarchy and the expansion of the regulatory state.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by Sandy » 08 Mar 2017, 17:53

Warren wrote:I watched the clip. I wouldn't sit through the whole debate (I didn't sit through the actual debate). I'm disgusted that people's perceptions changed. They said exactly what the candidates said and it was every bit as stupid and for exactly the same reasons. The only way it could have changed is if the candidates didn't come with all their baggage. Knowing The Donald to be a clown, and the existence of the Never Trump caucus assured me that he wouldn't do any lasting damage. Likewise having seen HRC as First Lady and SoS, I knew her to be a savvy political operator consumed with ambition, committed to oligarchy and the expansion of the regulatory state.
Part of it is that the clip they showed was a part where Trump had a good rhetorical point (you play both sides and unreasonably deflect blame) about an issue that he's overall basically wrong on (TPP is of course laden with bullshit, but the extra trade would have been good most likely).

It also shows Clinton being...Clinton. Condescending and arrogant. The same shit that turned people off her. I suspect most of it was "Oh, when I have my BUT IT'S A WOMAN goggles off, yeah, Clinton isn't much better," and once again, Trump benefits from low expectations.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by Eric the .5b » 08 Mar 2017, 19:51

*watches to tolerance level*

No, just like the real debates, I wanted a meteor strike to hit the room.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by Mo » 08 Mar 2017, 21:37

Eric the .5b wrote:*watches to tolerance level*

No, just like the real debates, I wanted a meteor strike to hit the room.
This. I don't see she Trump as more appealing.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by thoreau » 08 Mar 2017, 21:40

Mo wrote:
Eric the .5b wrote:*watches to tolerance level*

No, just like the real debates, I wanted a meteor strike to hit the room.
This. I don't see she Trump as more appealing.
OK, but don't you want to punch He-llary?
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by Warren » 08 Mar 2017, 21:47

thoreau wrote:
Mo wrote:
Eric the .5b wrote:*watches to tolerance level*

No, just like the real debates, I wanted a meteor strike to hit the room.
This. I don't see she Trump as more appealing.
OK, but don't you want to punch He-llary?
Of course, but don't you want to punch She-llary?
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by Eric the .5b » 08 Mar 2017, 23:56

thoreau wrote:OK, but don't you want to punch He-llary?
I'm unwilling to compare this reaction to my reaction to someone under Secret Service protection.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by Aresen » 09 Mar 2017, 00:13

Eric the .5b wrote:
thoreau wrote:OK, but don't you want to punch He-llary?
I'm unwilling to compare this reaction to my reaction to someone under Secret Service protection.
Both are: His Trumpyness as POTUS and Her Hillariness as a former Spouse of POTUS.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by Eric the .5b » 09 Mar 2017, 00:22

Aresen wrote:
Eric the .5b wrote:
thoreau wrote:OK, but don't you want to punch He-llary?
I'm unwilling to compare this reaction to my reaction to someone under Secret Service protection.
Both are: His Trumpyness as POTUS and Her Hillariness as a former Spouse of POTUS.
Exactly.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by MJGreen » 10 Mar 2017, 13:32

More revealing is that the people who put this together and put together a focus group got exactly the opposite of their expected result. That doesn't mean that their focus group generalized to the entire country, but it does mean that this is more complicated than the pundits made it seem with their assertions about gender reversals.
While the goal was to examine gender differences, I thought the interesting revelation was more about the audience seeing the two politicians with clearer eyes, seeing the candidates' political styles divorced from the actual candidates. It's a safe assumption that every person in the auditorium was a Clinton voter/supporter, and went in expecting to like Clinton and hate Trump even more, yet many came out realizing why Trump's style was effective for people. Their distaste for Trump and excuses for Clinton distorted how they evaluated the original debate. But when you take away Trump's bloated Scottish face and absurdly long tie, you have a pretty standard politician saying standard politician things. The same point is made by Peter Serafinowicz's "Sophisticated Trump" videos; replace his whiny throaty voice with a posh British lilt, and he's not that outrageous. Sure, what comes out of Trump's mouth is dumber and more simplistic than most politicians, but it's the same substance.

For me, Lady Trump and Sir Clinton both came off better, simply by virtue of not being the real Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. Lady Trump was obnoxious, but I get why she's effective. Now I'd like to see them should return the genders to (attractive) male Trump and (attractive) female Clinton, and see if the responses hold.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by Warren » 10 Mar 2017, 14:23

MJGreen wrote:But when you take away Trump's bloated Scottish face and absurdly long tie, you have a pretty standard politician saying standard politician things. The same point is made by Peter Serafinowicz's "Sophisticated Trump" videos; replace his whiny throaty voice with a posh British lilt, and he's not that outrageous. Sure, what comes out of Trump's mouth is dumber and more simplistic than most politicians, but it's the same substance.
Bwa? No. The things that came out of DT's mouth during the campaign were of a wholly different, and exceedingly stupid, variety than was spoken in the light of day by any politician of my lifetime.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by JD » 10 Mar 2017, 14:27

Warren wrote:Bwa? No. The things that came out of DT's mouth during the campaign were of a wholly different, and exceedingly stupid, variety than was spoken in the light of day by any politician of my lifetime.

Nah. More evil? More disingenuous? Quite possibly. More stupid? No.

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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by Kolohe » 10 Mar 2017, 14:33

Trump used whistles where most used dog whistles and it worked better than anyone thought could be possible.
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Re: Gender-reversed presidential debate reveals Trump's allu

Post by nicole » 10 Mar 2017, 15:02

Personally I always found Trump's meandering style one of the most unusual things about his speeches. I watched a lot of the coverage of his rallies, and the way he would speak at those was so stream-of-consciousness...just not the way you expect even somewhat-prepared remarks to sound. I kept thinking it seemed really weird that that was working, because it seemed really uncompelling to me.

That whole style wasn't really evident in this clip, though. The closest it comes is the way Ms Trump interjects semi-disconnected phrases, but in context that is a perfectly intelligible (if somewhat aggressive) type of rebuttal.
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