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Yes.

I don't know where this trend arose, but it's wrong, wrong, wrong. It doesn't matter if the "to be" is understood. It sounds wrong and stupid. (No offense). I've never read a grammar book that suggested that leaving out the auxiliary verbs is acceptable, and even if one such grammar book did exist (or many for that matter), it's still incorrect.

P.S. If it wasn't already apparent, this is probably my biggest grammar-related pet peeve.

I've never heard anyone say "the pitcher needs filled" in lieu of "needs filling" or "needs to be filled." The former is definitely incorrect.

I disagree that it sounds stupid. It does sound eccentric, though, and I agree that it's wrong, wrong, wrong. Without the "to be," filled isn't the right form of the verb. Context makes it clear what one means, but context is a slippery thing that should not be depended upon unless absolutely necessary.

WHAT THE FUCK?

Seriously, is this something they teach you people in Engineering school? A friend of mine has a whole spiel on this. here.

At one point I would've been able to diagram the sentence, but that time is passed. I think what's going on...if only we had a cunning linguist around, is that you've got "the pitcher" as the subject and then a transitive verb "needs" and then with "filled" you have another verb rather than a noun ("filling" is a gerund). The auxiliary "to be" bridges that gap.

I have been listening to David do that for six years, and it is WRONG WRONG WRONG. Fight the dark side, Andrew!

But seriously, it's because the object of a verb must be a noun. A gerund (blanking) and an infinitive (to blank) can work as nouns. So:
CORRECT:
The cat needs food.
The cat needs feeding.
The cat needs to be fed.

INCORRECT:
The cat needs fed.

Let's just cut out everything except nouns and verbs. So, make it "cat, feed" or "pitcher, fill"

This is the most horrifying grammatical abortion I have ever heard of in my life.

What, my "English, speak" idea?

No, I meant the original one. Though yours does sound totally insane because it reads like you are addressing the animal/object and giving it a command.

It is a perfectly acceptable idiom in speech. I would not use it in a formal paper, but I also wouldn't use "ain't" in such a situation, and I use that in speech. It appears to be the norm in western Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio, or at least parts thereof (Pittsburgh is specifically mentioned), and that's where I grew up and formed most of my linguistic habits (that's close to where Americans think there's "no accent," so most people comment on my lack of one).

See here.

See also here.

It seems to be standard Scottish English, too, and it has been mentioned in the Pacific Northwest.

So don't feel bad about using it. It's an idiom, and they're not supposed to analyze correctly — that's why they're idioms (cf. "There is").

EDIT: For further reading on the Linguist List, see here — it's a Google search on the site and the specific phrase that touched off the discussion ("needs washed").

I've never heard it either. It sounds extremely awkward.

A.k.a. Cleveland

Everybody who sounds different than me has an accent.

From here: http:// tvtropes .org /pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ AmericanAccentInfluences

I know Clevelanders are usually accused of using a nasally short "a". I think I used to do this myself, although years of being on the radio probably cured me of that for the most part. It's amazing how easy it is to self-correct after you've heard yourself recorded a few times.

The Midwestern accent of my Indiana farm relatives always sounded Southern to me, except I don't recall actual Southerners using "I reckon" quite so much. But the drawl I associate with Southernness was definitely there.

McNeill's The Story of English had a map showing the spread of accents in the US. The part that surprised me most was how much of the US was influenced by the 'Southern' accent.

IIRC, almost all of the Western US had a southern-based accent. This may be because of the diaspora of southerners after the Civil War, but I don't remember if the book addressed that point.

Yeah, I actually grew up in Cuyahoga Falls, less than an hour south of Cleveland. I worked hard at not having an accent, and even hyper-corrected for a while (pronouncing the "t" in "often," for example). Most of the pronunciation quirks I know I have fall into the acceptable category for a General American accent (cot-caught merger, the pin-pen merger which drives me crazy, the Mary-marry-merry merger). I do say "y'all," but other than that I think I've been little affected by my twenty years in the South (actually, Appalachia, since the accents are different). Which is funny, because I was ten when we moved here, and among my family members I've been least affected by the change of accent. My sister, who was in her early twenties, has a strong drawl, and both my parents (who were in their forties when we moved) developed strong Southern accents. Of course, they were raised in southern Missouri (actually just southwest of you, Stevo — Park Hills, near Farmington), which has a form of Southern accent, so it's possible they were just reverting to form.

Although Wikipedia notes that the area that's most considered to be "accent free" is a broad swath from NW Illinois through Iowa and into Nebraska (link). But I was born in Cedar Rapids, in that area, so that's okay. Of course, I was only just barely speaking when we moved away, but why let stupid things like facts get in the way?

That's awful, awful awful (the original sentence).

Southern Indiana dialects have much in common with Southern dialects. Google the term "Hoosier Apex" to find out more; none of the links on the first page jumped out at me as being a perfect explanation, several of them put together paint a good picture of what is meant.

I think a construction like "The pitcher needs filled" should obliterated.

It is incorrect and also makes a person sound mongo-tarded.

It may be an idiom that is particular to a dialect or three, and if so is probably perfectly acceptable when its usage is limited to conversations with other speakers of that dialect who are also familiar with that idiom ... but all other members of the wider American society will think your brain was wired wrong and will never trust you with important responsibilities like filling pitchers or wiping your own nose.

It is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong as crushing bunnies when you try to pet them.

Speaking that manner will prevent you from being successful in life, and may result in your being deported to Tardistan.

No offense; obviously, some highly intelligent people use that sort of construction, for some unbelievably and inexplicably tardistic reason. They only give the appearance of being a glue-huffing child of incest when speaking in that manner. But that is probably not the sort of impression you want to give.

* nail gun *

And I thought that my critique was scathing! Whatever...it's ok as long as we put that disclaimer at the end, AFAIC. :)

So, again, to sum up everyone's comments, Andrew: using this non-construction = wrong^3.

Now go rinse your mouf out wit soap. And don't do it again. :^)

Test of Appalachia vs Southern, do you pronounce the "t" in "Premature" or not? Meaning, is it pronounced "Pree-ma-tour" or "Pre-ma-chure". Most people pronounce it the latter way, but in SW Virginia they, at least the economically higher levels of society, pronounce in the previous in my experience.

I think you were probably directing this question to grylliade, but anyway....

I pronounce it "ma-chure" normally; "ma-tour" if I am putting on airs, generally only in mockery of such people.

David already hit on this, but yes, this is a Pittsburgh-ese phrase and grammatically incorrect.

However, a study was done recently at Carnegie Mellon University looking into some of the Pittsburgh grammatical constructions. They arose from a mix of Scotch-Irish, German and Slavic languages, which are three of the predominant ethnicities in the region.

Good thing Tom Tancredo wasn't around back then, or I might not be here.

P.S. You're from western PA? How bout them Penguins!

I've never heard this before in my life. I hope never to hear it again. Please don't do it anymore. Think of the children.

Oh, forgot to add my comment on this. Answer: Most definitely.

I should mention that I generally agree with David that gramatically incorrect idioms are perfectly acceptable for conversation and informal settings. Just not this one.

Feh! Schoolmarms, the lot of ya. (not You Grylliade) I actually agree, in that it grates on my ears. I'm aghast that it is associated with mid-west engineers. I'm an engineer from the mid-west! I have never committed such a grammar infraction. To my ears, it sounds like an urbanization (keep in mind, I live a hundred miles, literally, from the nearest urban). That makes it sound like the speaker is uneducated, uncivil, possibly criminal.

However; ENGLISH IS A LIVING LANGUAGE
Sure it grates on the ears now. It's unfamiliar. But you people are trying to insist the rest of the English speaking world conform to the arbitrary and capricious abortion of rules and standards that is the English Language as you know it today. It ainna gonna happen. If this catches on, it will spread and become more common and your ears will adjust. In three years time you could all be speaking such heresy. That's just the way it is.

This pin-pen merger is another degenerate effect of the South's rising influence on popular culture.

Also, I have heard this sentence construction a lot from British speakers. It's fairly horrible though.

Hmmm...no Ali, no Bzial...yep, Grammar is another bit of Stuff White People Like. EDIT: OK, Mo, thanks for giving us cover.

I personally believe in the death penalty for those who do not adopt the Oxford Comma.

maybe if you've had a stroke.

or in your strange moon language:

stroke has, if?

Yeah, when I moved down here "waiting on" (instead of "waiting for") drove me crazy. Still does. But it seems to have become the standard idiom, as I hear it on national TV all the time now, even from educated people.

I concur.

What if I say it "PRE-ma-tuure?

I gotta agree with War-lac-tus the world destroyer, though; y'all are way too trigger happy when it comes to weird syntax.

I believe the proper term is "Huzzah!", anything else vexes me.

serial commas are gay.

"Pre-ma-chure." And I pronounce the "t"; it's just palatalized :-) (the "ch" sound is an affricate combining "t" with "sh" phonetically, and the "sh" comes from a historical "ty" sound like in the British pronunciation of "tune").

Not that, there's, anything wrong, with, that...

if i change it to "hella gay" does that make it better or worse?

:(

anyway, let me rephrase my objection:

"serial commas eat penises like a dying man who was hungry for penises"

I fully and wholeheartedly believe that language is living. I actually did study linguistics for three years during my first stab at college. After studying the flow of language in English and Mandarin, I just can't bring myself to support prescriptive grammar.

That and I grew up for many years using Ebonics/African-American Vernacular constructions that would make half the people on this board cringe.

I'm not naive. I'm well aware that dialect and idiom usage is used as a socio-economic marker by people and try to craft my language useaccordingly but as far as I actually giving a damn..well I don't. :)

Dhex shall be taunted, beaten [COMMA!] and banned.

Dhex, I believe that this sentence, for all its flaws, is likely to drive you absolutely barking, batshit, hopping mad!

Also: ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

serial commas are the worst thing ever dudes.

here let me prove it:

"in this sentence we list things like rightness, wrongness, and other stuff."

"in this sentence we list things like rightness, wrongness and stuff."

the serial comma is not only unnecessary it actually went back in time and made the holocaust worst by adding a completely inappropriate ragtime soundtrack.

the second sentence? smothered hitler in the crib.

Hey I like ragtime

dhex, you ate the paint chips off your crib didn't you.

i was raised in barbed wire, so...only once.